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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hopefully it was clear to everyone but you that by "Then show the way and write something on "Horse Racing"", I meant for Ausrace, where you posted the plea "</span>Can we please go back to 'Horse Racing'", and has nothing to do with books you have written for profit.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have never, despite requests, written anything for profit nor provided ratings for profit<b>, </b>but have over many years freely (that's free, not for payment ) provided statistics on horse racing on the Ausrace site and to people "off-list"<b> - more statistics I think than anyone else over the years on Ausrace</b>. But I do not denigrate those who do - to each his own - as you seemingly do me for not having written books, but to proffer having written books for profit as self-praise while contributing all-but nothing to Ausrace is … adequate words temporarily fail me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I traced back to 2011 when someone asked me off-list about what I meant by Impact Values and in reply to my explanation, wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>"Ok yes, I see, so the same meaning as per the work from Roger Biggs</span></i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>".<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>and I responded:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>"Never read Biggs, not even sure I'd heard of him - had to Google it. Maybe he took IV from me? I've used it "forever", and actually thought I may have invented the term.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But I checked, and maybe I got the term from Quirin as I read his book several times back in the early 80s. <o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>According to Quirin, "An IV of 1.00 means that horses with a specific characteristic have won no more and no less than their fair share of the races. An IV of 2.00 meant these horses won twice as much as expected; an IV of .50 meant they won half as much as expected". <o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Which may be a clearer explanation than the one I gave you"<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Racing <racing-bounces@ausrace.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger Biggs<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 29 November 2018 12:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> racing@ausrace.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Mr Loveday,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As you say ... I really should write about horseracing.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>(AKA Adelaide).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>known on a number of websites.I will not respond further.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Kind regards.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday <<a href="mailto:lloveday@ozemail.com.au">lloveday@ozemail.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='background:yellow'>"women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped</span>.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Racing <</span><a href="mailto:racing-bounces@ausrace.com" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>racing-bounces@ausrace.com</span></a><span lang=EN-US>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger Biggs<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:racing@ausrace.com" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>racing@ausrace.com</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Where is this rather strange thread going???<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can we please go back to "Horse Racing".<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday <<a href="mailto:lloveday@ozemail.com.au" target="_blank">lloveday@ozemail.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Racing <</span><a href="mailto:racing-bounces@ausrace.com" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>racing-bounces@ausrace.com</span></a><span lang=EN-US>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>L.B.Loveday<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <</span><a href="mailto:racing@ausrace.com" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US>racing@ausrace.com</span></a><span lang=EN-US>><br><b>Subject:</b> [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "<i>Didn't think so</i>" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m64782778453976492m-4286194029167241026dttext>Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same… I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"…..</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Len,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Has he been medically diagnosed as senile?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Didn't think so.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I totally agree.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Mostly the damage is irreparable.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Lindsay<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Racing [mailto:<a href="http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com" target="_blank">racing-bounces at ausrace.com</a>] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses?<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>_______________________________________________<br>Racing mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Racing@ausrace.com" target="_blank">Racing@ausrace.com</a><br><a href="http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com" target="_blank">http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Racing mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Racing@ausrace.com" target="_blank">Racing@ausrace.com</a><br><a href="http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com" target="_blank">http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>