From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Fri Feb  1 18:31:21 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 18:31:21 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir
Message-ID: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>

At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow.
And into the future I guess.

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Fri Feb  1 18:37:11 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 18:37:11 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir
In-Reply-To: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <009401d4ba00$f2b96670$d82c3350$@ozemail.com.au>

Yes, scratched from Sale Sunday too.

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 6:31 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir

 

At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow.
And into the future I guess.

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From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 20:03:04 2019
From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 20:03:04 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir
In-Reply-To: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAJfP4b2pU+FyZKCaF+BWtCreeU+Lq5kTtqx=YYDw-wC2_3sDKw@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure if he has been afforded due process. Don't like the way rival
trainers are sticking their bibs in either. Dabernig and Andrew Payne
should pull their heads in.
The Victorian stewards have a history of making surprise raids on stables
so I can't work out why any trainer would risk having jiggers on site. It
makes  no sense at all. Could be more to this story than meets the eye.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:31 PM L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow.
> And into the future I guess.
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From seanmac4321 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 09:22:25 2019
From: seanmac4321 at gmail.com (sean mclaren)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 08:22:25 +1000
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir - fellow trainers comments re melbourne cup
 win ?
In-Reply-To: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAOBDE-RsXTTNdSa46n=K9kqHr37WOo6hRqf+pcq3WXthE2dnoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:30 AM sean mclaren <seanmac4321 at gmail.com> wrote:

> hi tony
>
> my comments posted after melbourne cup race was run
>
> "watching a couple of horses from the widest gates get across into box
>
> positions going out of the first turn with such ease / uncontested , told me that this wasn't going to be any
>
> ordinary cup race.
>
> gobsmacked at the continued lack of genuine pace / initiative of jocks.
>
> the papers say the time was 4 secs slower than protectionist's and 7 secs
>
> outside the record set by Kingston Rule."
>
> cheers
>
>
> sean
>
>
On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 5:31 PM L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow.
> And into the future I guess.
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From tonymoffat at bigpond.com  Sat Feb  2 18:40:27 2019
From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 15:40:27 +0800
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Message-ID: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>

I removed some lines from this -they were advertising

 I corrected some grammar anomalies - from US of A to strine.

The inputs can be modified to use 200,400 and 600 metre times, and the
overall (of course) although the author uses the expression 'furlongs' (a
metre longer, then use
201 as a furlong,401,601)
 'e' cannot be explained nor defined nor extrapolated and an early equation
remains unsolved because of this - in addition to the overuse of nor.
Otherwise a couple of reads and it comes to you.
I presume I have permission to post it here - it is again freely available 

There is an explanation of 'e' at the end, read on

Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing BY RUBIN BOXER, RETIRED ENGINEER
Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Note: This engineering report, long treasured by those who make a living
betting on the horses, has rarely been available to the general public. For
contained within this twelve-page report, written using  the objective
language of mathematics by retired engineer Rubin Boxer, is a solid,
scientific foundation to the art of horse racing. Those who take the time to
learn how to apply the methodology as laid out in this report will have a
decided advantage over their competition, other horse handicappers.
ABSTRACT:

While the process of assessing the capability of horses is, to a large
extent, an art, some aspects of how a horse actually races can be analyzed.

We show that by considering the energy used by a horse, it is possible to
derive "Capability Constants" which are inherent descriptors of the racing
horse. In a further derivation we obtain the horse's internal "friction".

We develop a way to account for changes to the weight carried by a horse.

In essence, this paper provides an engineering dimension to describe and
compare thoroughbred horses.

I-INTRODUCTION

The art of analyzing how a horse races is a fairly involved process. Some of
the factors we have to consider are:

The horse's class which measures the quality of horses in its races.
The horse's breeding which determines whether a horse is better suited for
long races (routes), short races (sprints), dirt or turf surfaces, and
whether the horse can be expected to run well on a muddy track.
The horse's sex and age. Generally, male horses will defeat females and
horses reach a peak and then decline with age.
The horse's physical fitness. How long has it been since its last race; has
it been working out regularly; has it been improving?
The trainer's competence.
The jockey's competence.
The weight carried by the horse, or more important, the change in this
weight since a previous race.
The horse's post position. Post positions are numbered from the track rail
outward. A particular position can cause a horse, among other things, to run
wide around turns adding to its race distance, or, to be blocked by other
horses.
The type of race the horse runs, e.g., does the horse set the pace by being
a front runner, or does the horse normally come from behind to vie for the
lead?
The condition of the track. Track maintenance is done daily and between
races. Each race itself affects the track. Wind, which, for convenience, we
also associate with a track, can change the outcome of a race. Track related
factors such as these cause racing performance to vary from day to day and
race to race.
The differences among tracks. Some tracks are inherently faster or slower
than others.
The horse's performance in previous races.
It may be presumptuous to apply the term "Engineering Analysis" to something
as flesh-and- blood and non-mechanical as a thoroughbred race horse. The
analysis, however, leads to valid results and provides terminology that
allows us to think about, and describe, horse racing in useful ways.

II-ANALYSIS

A. Capability Constants and Race Time.

Of all the factors noted above, we can argue that the most important
indicator of a horse's potential capability is its performance in previous
races.

We assert that a horse has a certain store of energy at the start of a race,
which is used as the race progresses.

A simple analogy is useful. When a weight is dragged along the ground,
energy is used in overcoming the friction between the weight and the ground.
The greater the friction, the greater the energy use.

The case of a racing horse is, of course, much more complicated. The
"friction" is caused by track condition effects, the contact between the
horse's hooves and ground, internal interactions of muscle and bone, and
other biological processes. We assume here that all factors can be included
in what we term "equivalent friction".

We also assume that the rate at which horses can draw on this energy reserve
varies. There is a maximum rate, which translates into maximum speed, and
lower rates that yield lesser speeds. Whatever the rate of energy use, it is
not sustainable indefinitely.

Horses can differ in their rates of energy expenditure. Consider sprint and
route races. In sprints the horses usually race at full effort during the
entire race. Speed near the start is at its maximum and then decreases. In
routes there is often a need to save energy at the start for a greater
effort at the end. In some instances, especially in turf races, horses will
increase speed during part of the race.

The concept of "equivalent friction" is defined by equation 1:
    fe = uW   (eq. 1)
where:
    fe is equivalent friction force
    u is friction coefficient
    W is weight that the horse carries

We structure the analysis in terms of the more usual case where speed
decreases, by assuming that the decrease is proportional to the energy used
to overcome friction.  (For convenience we consider constants of
proportionality and units to be included in u.)

Let the distance along the track from the race start be x. Then:

    v(t) = Vm-uWx(t)    (eq. 2)
where:
    v(t) is velocity, (speed)
    Vm   is starting velocity
    x(t) is distance
    t   is time

With v(t) = dx/dt, equation 2 is a first order differential equation:

    dx/dt = Vm-uWx(t)    (eq. 3)

Solving equation 3:

    x(t) = (Vm/uW)(1-e-uWt)    (eq. 4)

which gives the position of the horse at any specified time.

The horse's speed is:

    v(t) = Ve-uWt    (eq. 5)

To obtain useful results we need numerical values for the constants in
equations 4 and 5. If we let k=uW for convenience, equation 4 becomes:

    x(t) = (Vm/k)(1-e-ekt)    (eq. 6)

Equation 6 contains an exponential term which we approximate, using a series
expansion, to make the calculation of the constants easier. This leads to:

    x(t)=(Vm/k)(1-(1-kt+k2t2/2+..))    (eq. 7)

Using the first terms of the series:

    x(t) = Vmt - Vmkt2/2    (eq. 8)

Equation 8 has two unknowns, Vm and k. We can solve for them by using data
from a previous race. We need the position of the horse, x(t) at two times.
One approach is to use the data
at the first or second calls and at the end of the race. (The first and
second calls are the times, from the start of the race, that the leading
horse arrives at standard intermediate distances of the race.) The data,
provided by a number of publications, also show how far the horse we are
considering was behind the leading horse at the time of those calls. This
gives us both the time and position of the horse.

The distance behind the leading horse is given in "lengths". Supposedly,
this originated from the length of a horse itself. The data for lengths
behind are subjective, provided by humans who observe the race. Values of
about 10 or 11 feet have typically been used for a length; in this paper we
use 10.

Using lengths behind as an actual distance is more accurate than equating a
length to 1/5th second of time, as is often done, because the time to run
one length varies at different points in the race.

In equation 8, let z = Vmk, then:

    t12z-2t1Vm = -2x1    (eq. 9)

where x1 and t1 are the position and time of the horse at the first call. A
second equation would be similar for either the second call or finish of the
race.

However, greater accuracy may be obtained, if we used more data, for
example, three points. These can be the first and second calls and the race
finish. Using finish time and position data an equation similar to equation
9, with variables of time and distance of tf and xf would be a third
equation.

This is a case where the number of data points and equations that we have,
3, is larger than the number of unknowns, 2. A way to deal with this is to
obtain a least mean squares fit. Only the results of that standard procedure
are given here.

We define:

    A = t12+t12+tf2
    B = t13+t23+tf3
    C = t14+t24+tf4
    D = t1x1+t2x2+tfxf
    E = t12x1+t22x2+tf2xf    (eq. 10)

The results are:

    Vm = (BE-CD)/(B2-AC)
    z = (2AE-2BD)/(B2-AC)    (eq. 11)

With Vmand using k = z/Vm we have all the unknowns needed. We call Vm and k
the horse's capability constants because they are useful in describing how
the horse raced. More discussion of this is in Section III.
Having the capability constantswe can obtain the horse's time at any
distance in the race from the quadratic form of equation 8.

    (Vm/2)(kt2)-Vm+x = 0     (eq. 12)

The solution of this quadratic is:

    t = 1/k - (1/Vmk)(Vm2-2Vmkx)1/2     (eq. 13)

In particularif we enter xfthe length of a racewe obtain tfthe horse's
finish time. Next we derive a way to adjust for any change in weight that
the horse carries.

In the introduction we noted that the performance of a horse will be
affected by the weight it carries. In the United Stateswith the exception of
a few tracksas opposed tosayJapanthe weight of the horse itself is not
usually known. What we are given is the weight that the horse must carry.

B-Weight Change Effects

Each race has certain weight conditions that must be met by each horse
entered in the race. One number is provided which represents the weight of
the jockey plus any weights added to meet those specified conditions. We are
limited in our analysis to using the weight carriedwithout knowledge of the
weight of the horse itself. This may not be too much of a limitationsince
the actual weight of a fit horse remains fairly constant and a horse's
baseline capability might be associated with that weight. The fact that our
analysis yields results that agree with "rules of thumb" of trainers and
other experts lends some credence to this conjecture.

>From equation 4 we can obtain an expression for t(without resorting to the
series approximation that was used to simplify obtaining the capability
constants):

    t = ln(1-kx/Vm)/-k     (eq.14)

Differentiating to obtain dt/dk:

    dt/dk=(x/k)/(Vm-kx)+(1/k2)(ln((Vm-kx)/(Vm))    (eq. 15)

We can obtain values for dt/dkfor different race lengthsxfusing equation 15.
To do this we need values for Vm and k. Although these varywe can choose
typical values by assuming that the weight results are not strongly
sensitive to such variance. We choose

    Vm = 0.0934
    k = 0.0025

where the units of the basic equation terms are furlongs for distance and
furlongs per second for velocity or speed.

Using x = 8 for an 8 furlong race equation 15 yields:

    dt/dk = 5042      (eq. 16)

In horse racingit is standard to deal in time units of 0.2 seconds(1/5th of
a second).

Using 0.2 seconds for dt in equation 16 yields 3.97 x 10-5 for dk which is
1.59% of the typical 0.0025 value for k. Since k = uW and u the coefficient
of friction is assumed constant then whatever percentage change we obtain
for k must be caused by the same percentage change in weight carried.

A typical value for weight carried is 116 pounds. A 1.59% change in this
weight is 1.84 pounds. So for 8 furlong (1 mile) races, every change in
weight of 1.84 pounds will change the horse's race time by 0.2 seconds.

The one fifth of a second standard time interval is called a "tick". It's
useful to give the time change in terms of the number, or fraction, of ticks
for each pound of weight change. Expressed this way, the above result is
that for each pound of weight change in an 8 furlong race, the time a horse
will take to run the race will change by 0.54 ticks.

In Table 1, we show the same results, for a number of common race distances.

TABLE 1
Time Change per One Pound Weight Change Normalized to 116 pounds RACE
DISTANCE
(FURLONGS)	TIME CHANGE
(TICKS)
5	0.187
5.5	0.231
6	0.280
6.5	0.336
7	0.398
7.5	0.467
8	0.543
8.5	0.627
9	0.719
10	0.930
12	1.479
15	2.716
16	3.276
(Ainsley[Reference1.] refers to a weight formula used by racing experts: At
sprint distances, (say 6 furlongs), four pounds slows a horse by 1/5th
second. Three pounds doesit at a mile, (8 furlongs), two pounds for a mile
and one eighth, (9 furlongs), and one pound for a mile and a quarter, (10
furlongs). Using the pound per tick format of Table I, Ainsley's numbers are
equivalent to 0.25,0.33,0.5, and 1.0 pounds at these distances.

Agreement is close to our results at 6 and 10 furlongs, and "ballpark" at
the other distances.)Our example uses 116 pounds as a typical weight. In the
table we retain this weight as a standard because the basic calculation
involves a percentage change from a particular weight. Other weights would
lead to different values. In practice this is not a problem, as we explain
in part of the discussion that follows.

III-DISCUSSION

A. Capability Constants Discussion.

We derived Vm and k and called them the capability constants of the horse.
The interpretation of Vm is straight forward; it's the speed of the horse
just after the start of the race. In some races this turns out to be
important because it yields some idea of which horses "set the pace"i.e.are
out in front at the start.

What interpretation can we put on k? Recall that we defined k = uW. This is
also the equivalent friction of equation 1. From equations 4 and 5we see
that k can also be thought of as a degradation factor since it appears as a
negative power of the exponential terms in those equations.

The larger the value of k, the faster the horse uses energy, and the faster
is its drop in speed. If k were to equal zero it would mean that the horse
ran at constant speed, while a negative value of k would result from a horse
that sped up.

We must exercise care when interpreting k. Equivalent friction was described
as being made up of components which depend on the surface condition of the
track and the physical condition of the horse. If the track condition is
such that it is termed "slow"meaning that it causes horses to tire easily, k
will be large. Without regard to track condition however, if a horse is not
in fit condition when it races, it can tire easily, also causing a large
value for k.

To evaluate k for the horse itself we need to separate the part of race
performance due to track condition from the part due to horse capability.
Since both are contained in equivalent friction, the equations alone do not
allow us to separate the effects.

One way to deal with this is to use the concept of track variant.

The need to separate horse capability from track condition effects is not a
problem unique to the engineering analysis given here. It is classical to
handicapping. As a result there are many sources of information available
which describe the condition of tracks for particular days and races.
Numbers are provided to adjust race times for track condition.Such numbers
are called track variants.

Track variants are derived by experts who account for race class and the way
races are run. They describe track condition in terms of these variants. If
we use these variants at the calls and finish of a race to adjust the times
at those points, then k will be based more on horse capability than on track
condition.

B. Race Time Discussion.

We showed that we can take data from a previous race to derive the
capability constants which can be used in equation 13 to obtain race time.
Of course we already know the race time of a previous race. But we have
accomplished two things. First, we have a method that analyzes races and
gives us the constants that describe how particular horses raced.Second, we
have tools that can be used to try to predict the outcome of future races.

Factors that make prediction difficult were touched on in Section I. Here we
show how to deal with some of them.

To compare horses we need to proceed with a sequence of steps. These steps
have both judgmental and analytical aspects to them, i.e., some art and some
science. Typically we start by selecting a previous race.

Let's say we are going to examine today's races. Publications like the,
"Daily Racing Form", provide us with data about each horse's previous races.
(Some races have horses that never raced before, so no race data is
available for them. For such horses we obviously cannot apply our methods
but must rely on clues from a horse's breeding and it's workouts.)

Since previous race data is fundamental to our approach, selecting that race
is all important. Some things to consider:

It's preferable to use races that were at today's distance, surface, and
class. If a race at today's distance is not available choose one close to
it.

Choose a recent race over an earlier one as an indicator of a horse's
present fitness. (Even this simple statement has a caveat. If a horse hasn't
raced in a "reasonable" time, then it might be better to choose the earlier
race because the horse may have needed the layoff and rest period to return
it to an earlier fitness. Recent good workouts may be a sign that this is
so.)

After choosing a previous race the next step is to use its data to obtain
the capability constants and an estimate of finish time. (The description of
how to do this, which follows, may seem tedious, but bear in mind that it is
easily accomplished, accurately, with a computer.

We adjust horse position at the calls and finish where:

    x1a = x1-FL1
    x2a = x2-FL2
    xfa = xf-FLf     (eq. 17)

x1ax2aand x2a are the call and finish positions after adjustment.
L1L2and Lf are the lengths behind at the calls and finish.
F = 1/66furlongs per length.

Earlier we showed how track variant and weight carried affect race data sowe
must take them into account.

A useful way is to "normalize" previous races. We adjust the race results so
that they represent horses carrying 116 pounds racing on a normal track. A
normal track is one where the horses race at "par"i.e.the race outcomes are
what we expect from horses of their class and racing style. (One measure of
a par track is a variant of zero in a method used by the publication"Today's
Racing Digest". In their system, variants are given in number of "ticks".
Positive numbers mean that the track was fast so they are added to finish
time while negative numbers mean the track was slow and are subtracted.) If
the previous race was at a different track, then we add a refining
adjustment to account for their speed differences. Some sources provide
variants for each of the calls. In our examples,we assume we have track
variant for finish time only.

Since both weight carried and track variant affect race time and are
measured in "ticks"we can deal with them together to normalize call and
finish times:

    t1a = t1+.2(x1a/xfa)(p+(wf)(116-Wp))
    t2a = t2+.2(x2a/xfa)(p+(wf)(116-Wp))
    tfa = tf+.2(p+(wf)(116-Wp)      (Eq. 18)

wheret1at2aand tfa are adjusted call and finish times     p is track
variantwf is the weight factor in Table Iand Wp is the weight carried in the
previous race.

Equations 18 show that weight and variant time adjustments are distributed
over the track in proportion to the call and finish distances. It's correct
to expect that this is proper for weight. For exampleat the half mile point
of a mile racethe time change due to weight should be half that at the
finish. For varianthoweverthis may not be the case. Track conditions can
vary during the racee.g. a headwind can change to a tailwind. But in the
absence of variant numbers at the internal race callsthe assumption of a
proportional distribution seems reasonable.

Equations 17 and 18 provide us with all we need to apply equations 10, 11,
and 13 to obtain the capability constants and finish time. (We use the
adjusted time and position values in equations 10, 11, and 13.) If we make
these calculations for each horse in a race, we obtain finish times for all
so we have a predicted order of finish. This prediction is based on
normalized results. (Recall normalized results are for horses carrying 116
pounds racing on a par track.) In today's race, horses may be carrying
different weights and the track will probably not be at par. We can argue
that we need not concern ourselves with the value of "today's" track variant
because unless there are special conditions present,each horse racing over
the same track will be affected in the same way. The predicted finishing
order should not change.

We make the time adjustment due to weight:

    .2(116-Wt)(wf)

where Wt is the weight carried today. Adding this time adjustment to each
horse leads to a "denormalized" finish order prediction for "today's" race.

Now and again a few further refinements are possible. The data of previous
races include qualitative comments such as:

    "Four-wide into turn" "Wide early" "Broke slowly" "Boxed in."

These comments can be very important. The first two are examples of where a
horse may actually have run a longer race     the last two are examples of a
horse that might have been able to run its race in a faster time.

If an entire race were run without turns a horse that ran wide would not be
at a disadvantage. But almost every race has at least one turn so horses
that run wide around a turn have to cover more ground and the extra distance
can be appreciable.

To see this consider the distance around one turn i.e. half a circle:

    C = ?r     (eq. 19)

where C is the distance around the turn and r is the radius of the circle
that the rail horse travels around the turn.
(? of course is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter
approximately equal to 3.1416.)

If the separation of horses racing side by side is then the distance
traveled by those racing wide around the turn is:

    Cn = ?(r+ns)     (eq. 20)

where n takes on the values 1, 2, 3, etc., representing wide horse positions
starting with the horse next to the rail horse.

The extra distance ? around a turn traveled by a non-rail horse compared to
the rail horse is the difference between Cn and C:

    ? = ?ns     (eq. 21)

This equation of extra distance does not depend on circle radius which means
that it is correct regardless of the length of the turn.

If a conservative value for horse separation, s, is 3 feet then the extra
lengths around a turn is shown in Table II.

TABLE II
Extra Distance Around a Turn
POSITION FROM RAIL HORSE (NUMBER)	EXTRA DISTANCE (LENGTH)
1	0.94
2	1.88
3	2.83
4	3.77
5	4.71
As we can see, the extra lengths a wide horse must travel can make a
difference in race outcome. If the separation between horses is greater than
the assumed 3 ft, as it can very well be, the extra distance traveled is
greater still. Further, if a horse goes wide early and stays there
throughout a two turn race, the extra distance traveled doubles.

C. Additional Discussion.

Other important facts about a race are available from our equations. For
example, once the capability constants are obtained, equation 5 can be used
to obtain a horse's speed at different times, which in turn means that the
ratio of speeds at the calls and finish can be calculated. These internal
call and finish values can be useful in evaluating a horse's form.

We showed that the normalizing process gave us information on how the horses
would have raced on a par track. In other words the effects of track variant
were eliminated. This means the capability constants refer more to the horse
itself than to track condition. To the extent this is true, we can obtain an
estimate of a horse's "equivalent friction", independent of the track.

Since k = uW:

    ueh = k/W     (Eq. 22)

where ueh is the equivalent friction coefficient of the horse itself. A low
value of ueh means that the horse ran efficiently and implies that the horse
was fit. A negative value may also imply that a horse was able to race
without reaching its limit on rate of energy use. Further study of this
conjecture is needed.

V-CONCLUSION

This paper develops tools to analyze thoroughbred race horses.

We should bear in mind that the non-mechanical nature of horses, and the
occurrence of the unexpected during a thoroughbred horse race, caution us
that no analytical method is infallible. In a statistical sense, however, we
expect the better horses to win, and a method that helps us identify such
horses is valuable. The engineering approach discussed in this paper does
that.

Reference:
1. Ainsley's Encyclopedia of Thoroughbred Handicapping     Ainsley, Tom,
William Morrow &
Company, New York, 1978; Page 253

E = Most tracks are dirt, grass or synthetic. Race times vary from track to
track depending on the surfaces. Horses wear horseshoes to protect their
feet and increase the "grippiness" on the track. Similarly to running
wearing spikes the shoes allow horses to turn with more power at high speeds
without slipping. We will examine the coefficient of fiction on dirt, grass,
and synthetic tracks. The coefficient of friction is the "measure of the
amount of resistance that a surface exerts on or substances moving over it,
equal to the ratio between the maximal frictional force that the surface
exerts and the force pushing the object toward the surface."[2] Because
racehorses are in motion we use kinetic coefficient of friction. The average
coefficient of friction for grass is .35, for synthetic tracks (rubberish)
.68, and for dirt .35.[3] [4] The safest track is a synthetic track and then
grass and dirt tracks. This is important to know because jockeys have to be
careful during turns, slowing down, but on a synthetic track they do not
need to slow down as much because it is grippier.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com





From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb  3 17:41:25 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:41:25 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir
In-Reply-To: <CAJfP4b2pU+FyZKCaF+BWtCreeU+Lq5kTtqx=YYDw-wC2_3sDKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
	<CAJfP4b2pU+FyZKCaF+BWtCreeU+Lq5kTtqx=YYDw-wC2_3sDKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001c01d4bb8b$7d509bb0$77f1d310$@ozemail.com.au>

Nick,

 

A comment from elsewhere:

 

Tail-docking a dog is illegal, putting a lobster in boiling water is illegal, an open hand smack on the bottom of a child is illegal (NZ, coming soon to Victoria),  giving a horse a mild zap is illegal, killing a frog to build a dam is illegal, but killing a viable 9 month old child is ok. 

 

LBL

 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of norsaintpublishing at gmail.com
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2019 8:03 PM
To: AusRace Racing Discussion List <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] DKWeir

 

Not sure if he has been afforded due process. Don't like the way rival trainers are sticking their bibs in either. Dabernig and Andrew Payne should pull their heads in. 

The Victorian stewards have a history of making surprise raids on stables so I can't work out why any trainer would risk having jiggers on site. It makes  no sense at all. Could be more to this story than meets the eye. 

 

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:31 PM L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:

At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow. And into the future I guess.

_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com> 
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From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 18:31:56 2019
From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 18:31:56 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] DKWeir
In-Reply-To: <001c01d4bb8b$7d509bb0$77f1d310$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <008a01d4ba00$22ae4680$680ad380$@ozemail.com.au>
	<CAJfP4b2pU+FyZKCaF+BWtCreeU+Lq5kTtqx=YYDw-wC2_3sDKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<001c01d4bb8b$7d509bb0$77f1d310$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAJfP4b1VnmppA8vh+BkxDDOphpkmsE83j08m_-TxHYt00x59Vg@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, sums it up acutely. No doubt the latter is coming to Oz as well.

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:41 PM L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Nick,
>
>
>
> A comment from elsewhere:
>
>
>
> *Tail-docking a dog is illegal, putting a lobster in boiling water is
> illegal, an open hand smack on the bottom of a child is illegal (NZ, coming
> soon to Victoria),  giving a horse a mild zap is illegal, killing a frog to
> build a dam is illegal, but killing a viable 9 month old child is ok. *
>
>
>
> LBL
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> *On Behalf Of *
> norsaintpublishing at gmail.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 1 February 2019 8:03 PM
> *To:* AusRace Racing Discussion List <racing at ausrace.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] DKWeir
>
>
>
> Not sure if he has been afforded due process. Don't like the way rival
> trainers are sticking their bibs in either. Dabernig and Andrew Payne
> should pull their heads in.
>
> The Victorian stewards have a history of making surprise raids on stables
> so I can't work out why any trainer would risk having jiggers on site. It
> makes  no sense at all. Could be more to this story than meets the eye.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 6:31 PM L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> At 17:05 all DKWeir's horses scratched from MV tonight and Cauf tomorrow.
> And into the future I guess.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Tue Feb  5 09:55:39 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 09:55:39 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] SP/SOP
Message-ID: <004901d4bcdc$c108e680$431ab380$@ozemail.com.au>

This is a grab from Dynamic Odds, taken this morning, of a race at Sale
yesterday. I hope it comes through intact.

 

StateOfficialPrice, calculated from DO's tracking of on-line bookmakers'
prices has replaced the SP determined by on-course BCB staff.

 

It is not unusual for odds for one or more bookmakers to not come through to
DO. Yesterday, this race did not update for BetZero after 7:53am - there is
no way BetZero were betting 2.25 #5 and 2.80 #3 at the jump, but presumably
those odds formed part of the input to the SOP. It is not an uncommon
occurrence, but is usually corrected before the race; however this and other
races were not updated during the day, and remain showing early morning
prices.

 

 



 

 

 

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Tue Feb  5 19:45:43 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 19:45:43 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
In-Reply-To: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>
References: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <000a01d4bd2f$2f87d290$8e9777b0$@ozemail.com.au>

Tony, 

When I saw your comment on 'e' then "Engineering Analysis", I immediately
though of 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995, but looks
like it's another 'e'.

LBL

-----Original Message-----
From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:40 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

I removed some lines from this -they were advertising

 I corrected some grammar anomalies - from US of A to strine.

The inputs can be modified to use 200,400 and 600 metre times, and the
overall (of course) although the author uses the expression 'furlongs' (a
metre longer, then use
201 as a furlong,401,601)
 'e' cannot be explained nor defined nor extrapolated and an early equation
remains unsolved because of this - in addition to the overuse of nor.
Otherwise a couple of reads and it comes to you.
I presume I have permission to post it here - it is again freely available 

There is an explanation of 'e' at the end, read on

Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing BY RUBIN BOXER, RETIRED ENGINEER
Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Note: This engineering report, long treasured by those who make a living
betting on the horses, has rarely been available to the general public. For
contained within this twelve-page report, written using  the objective
language of mathematics by retired engineer Rubin Boxer, is a solid,
scientific foundation to the art of horse racing. Those who take the time to
learn how to apply the methodology as laid out in this report will have a
decided advantage over their competition, other horse handicappers.
ABSTRACT:


E = Most tracks are dirt, grass or synthetic. Race times vary from track to
track depending on the surfaces. Horses wear horseshoes to protect their
feet and increase the "grippiness" on the track. Similarly to running
wearing spikes the shoes allow horses to turn with more power at high speeds
without slipping. We will examine the coefficient of fiction on dirt, grass,
and synthetic tracks. The coefficient of friction is the "measure of the
amount of resistance that a surface exerts on or substances moving over it,
equal to the ratio between the maximal frictional force that the surface
exerts and the force pushing the object toward the surface."[2] Because
racehorses are in motion we use kinetic coefficient of friction. The average
coefficient of friction for grass is .35, for synthetic tracks (rubberish)
.68, and for dirt .35.[3] [4] The safest track is a synthetic track and then
grass and dirt tracks. This is important to know because jockeys have to be
careful during turns, slowing down, but on a synthetic track they do not
need to slow down as much because it is grippier.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



_______________________________________________
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From tonymoffat at bigpond.com  Tue Feb  5 21:22:36 2019
From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 18:22:36 +0800
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
In-Reply-To: <000a01d4bd2f$2f87d290$8e9777b0$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>
	<000a01d4bd2f$2f87d290$8e9777b0$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000601d4bd3c$b7745950$265d0bf0$@bigpond.com>

Chortle - I think, well I read, that it's decimal expansion goes on forever,
you can never have too many decimal points.
Your number is tied into probability theory?

'e' = .35 and this works a treat in the Analysis equation(s), apparently.

Cheers

Tony

From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday

Subject: Re: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

Tony, 

When I saw your comment on 'e' then "Engineering Analysis", I immediately
though of 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995, but looks
like it's another 'e'.

LBL

-----Original Message-----
From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:40 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

I removed some lines from this -they were advertising

 I corrected some grammar anomalies - from US of A to strine.

The inputs can be modified to use 200,400 and 600 metre times, and the
overall (of course) although the author uses the expression 'furlongs' (a
metre longer, then use
201 as a furlong,401,601)
 'e' cannot be explained nor defined nor extrapolated and an early equation
remains unsolved because of this - in addition to the overuse of nor.
Otherwise a couple of reads and it comes to you.
I presume I have permission to post it here - it is again freely available 

There is an explanation of 'e' at the end, read on

Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing BY RUBIN BOXER, RETIRED ENGINEER
Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Note: This engineering report, long treasured by those who make a living
betting on the horses, has rarely been available to the general public. For
contained within this twelve-page report, written using  the objective
language of mathematics by retired engineer Rubin Boxer, is a solid,
scientific foundation to the art of horse racing. Those who take the time to
learn how to apply the methodology as laid out in this report will have a
decided advantage over their competition, other horse handicappers.
ABSTRACT:


E = Most tracks are dirt, grass or synthetic. Race times vary from track to
track depending on the surfaces. Horses wear horseshoes to protect their
feet and increase the "grippiness" on the track. Similarly to running
wearing spikes the shoes allow horses to turn with more power at high speeds
without slipping. We will examine the coefficient of fiction on dirt, grass,
and synthetic tracks. The coefficient of friction is the "measure of the
amount of resistance that a surface exerts on or substances moving over it,
equal to the ratio between the maximal frictional force that the surface
exerts and the force pushing the object toward the surface."[2] Because
racehorses are in motion we use kinetic coefficient of friction. The average
coefficient of friction for grass is .35, for synthetic tracks (rubberish)
.68, and for dirt .35.[3] [4] The safest track is a synthetic track and then
grass and dirt tracks. This is important to know because jockeys have to be
careful during turns, slowing down, but on a synthetic track they do not
need to slow down as much because it is grippier.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com


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Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com




From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Tue Feb  5 23:22:55 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 23:22:55 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
In-Reply-To: <000601d4bd3c$b7745950$265d0bf0$@bigpond.com>
References: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>	<000a01d4bd2f$2f87d290$8e9777b0$@ozemail.com.au>
	<000601d4bd3c$b7745950$265d0bf0$@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <000001d4bd4d$87283e40$9578bac0$@ozemail.com.au>

Learned about e in Applied Mathematics 1, and have never used it since! Yes,
it's used in probability theory, but it does have other applications, as
diverse as thermodynamics and compound interest. I think.


-----Original Message-----
From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2019 9:23 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

Chortle - I think, well I read, that it's decimal expansion goes on forever,
you can never have too many decimal points.
Your number is tied into probability theory?

'e' = .35 and this works a treat in the Analysis equation(s), apparently.

Cheers

Tony

From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday

Subject: Re: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

Tony, 

When I saw your comment on 'e' then "Engineering Analysis", I immediately
though of 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995, but looks
like it's another 'e'.

LBL

-----Original Message-----
From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:40 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

I removed some lines from this -they were advertising

 I corrected some grammar anomalies - from US of A to strine.

The inputs can be modified to use 200,400 and 600 metre times, and the
overall (of course) although the author uses the expression 'furlongs' (a
metre longer, then use
201 as a furlong,401,601)
 'e' cannot be explained nor defined nor extrapolated and an early equation
remains unsolved because of this - in addition to the overuse of nor.
Otherwise a couple of reads and it comes to you.
I presume I have permission to post it here - it is again freely available 

There is an explanation of 'e' at the end, read on

Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing BY RUBIN BOXER, RETIRED ENGINEER
Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Note: This engineering report, long treasured by those who make a living
betting on the horses, has rarely been available to the general public. For
contained within this twelve-page report, written using  the objective
language of mathematics by retired engineer Rubin Boxer, is a solid,
scientific foundation to the art of horse racing. Those who take the time to
learn how to apply the methodology as laid out in this report will have a
decided advantage over their competition, other horse handicappers.
ABSTRACT:


E = Most tracks are dirt, grass or synthetic. Race times vary from track to
track depending on the surfaces. Horses wear horseshoes to protect their
feet and increase the "grippiness" on the track. Similarly to running
wearing spikes the shoes allow horses to turn with more power at high speeds
without slipping. We will examine the coefficient of fiction on dirt, grass,
and synthetic tracks. The coefficient of friction is the "measure of the
amount of resistance that a surface exerts on or substances moving over it,
equal to the ratio between the maximal frictional force that the surface
exerts and the force pushing the object toward the surface."[2] Because
racehorses are in motion we use kinetic coefficient of friction. The average
coefficient of friction for grass is .35, for synthetic tracks (rubberish)
.68, and for dirt .35.[3] [4] The safest track is a synthetic track and then
grass and dirt tracks. This is important to know because jockeys have to be
careful during turns, slowing down, but on a synthetic track they do not
need to slow down as much because it is grippier.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com


_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com


_______________________________________________
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Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com




From kernow.fords at ntlworld.com  Tue Feb  5 23:34:55 2019
From: kernow.fords at ntlworld.com (Robert Ford)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 12:34:55 -0000
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
In-Reply-To: <000601d4bd3c$b7745950$265d0bf0$@bigpond.com>
References: <000001d4baca$913421e0$b39c65a0$@bigpond.com>	<000a01d4bd2f$2f87d290$8e9777b0$@ozemail.com.au>
	<000601d4bd3c$b7745950$265d0bf0$@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <004e01d4bd4f$33872d30$9a958790$@ntlworld.com>

Tony,

Thanks for the reference.

Horses do have some "instant" energy stores at the race start (creatine and
anaerobic) but soon start (aerobic metabolism) 
converting fat stores in the muscles into energy during the race - a much
slower process.
At 2 miles the latter is 40%. It decreases in release capacity due to lactic
acid build up slowing the chemical conversion processes.

Horses vary in the rates at which they can release their energy stores which
governs their running style.

Wind resistance is the biggest external energy loss and that is not linear
but is a cubic power loss which changes with the wind direction and horse
speed.

W is not just the weight the horse carries but the far bigger horse mass  +
jockey weight.

The equation 2 mixes speed with energy ( work done - = force X distance) so
all the equations which follow from that are incorrect.
The horse energy is 0.5W X (v squared).

The figures ended up with seem 30% too high at 5 f (1000m) and 180% too high
at 2 miles (3200m).

Robert








-----Original Message-----
From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: 05 February 2019 10:23
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

Chortle - I think, well I read, that it's decimal expansion goes on forever,
you can never have too many decimal points.
Your number is tied into probability theory?

'e' = .35 and this works a treat in the Analysis equation(s), apparently.

Cheers

Tony

From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday

Subject: Re: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

Tony, 

When I saw your comment on 'e' then "Engineering Analysis", I immediately
though of 2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995, but looks
like it's another 'e'.

LBL

-----Original Message-----
From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:40 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing

I removed some lines from this -they were advertising

 I corrected some grammar anomalies - from US of A to strine.

The inputs can be modified to use 200,400 and 600 metre times, and the
overall (of course) although the author uses the expression 'furlongs' (a
metre longer, then use
201 as a furlong,401,601)
 'e' cannot be explained nor defined nor extrapolated and an early equation
remains unsolved because of this - in addition to the overuse of nor.
Otherwise a couple of reads and it comes to you.
I presume I have permission to post it here - it is again freely available 

There is an explanation of 'e' at the end, read on

Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing BY RUBIN BOXER, RETIRED ENGINEER
Engineering Analysis of Thoroughbred Racing
Note: This engineering report, long treasured by those who make a living
betting on the horses, has rarely been available to the general public. For
contained within this twelve-page report, written using  the objective
language of mathematics by retired engineer Rubin Boxer, is a solid,
scientific foundation to the art of horse racing. Those who take the time to
learn how to apply the methodology as laid out in this report will have a
decided advantage over their competition, other horse handicappers.
ABSTRACT:


E = Most tracks are dirt, grass or synthetic. Race times vary from track to
track depending on the surfaces. Horses wear horseshoes to protect their
feet and increase the "grippiness" on the track. Similarly to running
wearing spikes the shoes allow horses to turn with more power at high speeds
without slipping. We will examine the coefficient of fiction on dirt, grass,
and synthetic tracks. The coefficient of friction is the "measure of the
amount of resistance that a surface exerts on or substances moving over it,
equal to the ratio between the maximal frictional force that the surface
exerts and the force pushing the object toward the surface."[2] Because
racehorses are in motion we use kinetic coefficient of friction. The average
coefficient of friction for grass is .35, for synthetic tracks (rubberish)
.68, and for dirt .35.[3] [4] The safest track is a synthetic track and then
grass and dirt tracks. This is important to know because jockeys have to be
careful during turns, slowing down, but on a synthetic track they do not
need to slow down as much because it is grippier.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com


_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com


_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com




From essbee at internode.on.net  Sat Feb  9 19:11:39 2019
From: essbee at internode.on.net (SteveB)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 19:11:39 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
Message-ID: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>

Can somebody refresh my memory?

What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided 
computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?

Bob Robertson?

Thanks





From seanmac4321 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 19:14:04 2019
From: seanmac4321 at gmail.com (sean mclaren)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 18:14:04 +1000
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAOBDE-TnO2K76di=XVmASH203FYN2_61eDD80Ksn5+Wafpc8xg@mail.gmail.com>

Len is the man

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 18:12 SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net wrote:

> Can somebody refresh my memory?
>
> What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided
> computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>
> Bob Robertson?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 20:05:49 2019
From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 20:05:49 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, the one and same.

On Sat., 9 Feb. 2019, 7:12 pm SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net wrote:

> Can somebody refresh my memory?
>
> What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided
> computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>
> Bob Robertson?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From essbee at internode.on.net  Sun Feb 10 06:37:52 2019
From: essbee at internode.on.net (SteveB)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 06:37:52 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
	<CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>

Thanks Norsaint,

Is he alive do you? know?

Just got my interest after somebody that follows me, re tweeted about 
the 27 winners they(Mr Magic....claiming to be one and the same) picked 
in Sydney yesterday.

with their algorithms and logarithms!

All after the race as far as I can tell.

https://twitter.com/MrMagicRacing

Steve

On 9/02/2019 8:05 pm, norsaintpublishing at gmail.com wrote:
> Yep, the one and same.
>
> On Sat., 9 Feb. 2019, 7:12 pm SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net 
> <mailto:essbee at internode.on.net> wrote:
>
>     Can somebody refresh my memory?
>
>     What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who
>     provided
>     computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>
>     Bob Robertson?
>
>     Thanks
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Racing mailing list
>     Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com>
>     http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb 10 07:38:12 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 07:38:12 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <CAOBDE-TnO2K76di=XVmASH203FYN2_61eDD80Ksn5+Wafpc8xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
	<CAOBDE-TnO2K76di=XVmASH203FYN2_61eDD80Ksn5+Wafpc8xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b601d4c0b7$61db7ef0$25927cd0$@ozemail.com.au>

Bob Robertson ("Robbie") it was.

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of sean mclaren
Sent: Saturday, 9 February 2019 7:14 PM
To: AusRace Racing Discussion List <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Mr Magic

 

Len is the man

 

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 18:12 SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net <mailto:essbee at internode.on.net>  wrote:

Can somebody refresh my memory?

What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided 
computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?

Bob Robertson?

Thanks



_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com> 
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com

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From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 08:00:28 2019
From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 08:00:28 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
	<CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAJfP4b2dTHpHd74-nH=6QgpsEJt7qaPpfDc8CUhDH3eegUCcUw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve,
    his name came up in discussion  sometime last year from memory.
He can be found at Morphettville every week in a social capacity and having
what appears very small wagers with the one bookie in his bar area. Was
always seated with 3 or 4 others sharing a bottle of something or other. In
the winter he'd leave early so he could get home to watch the Crows play.
I'm not sure if the percentages got him in the end or whether a divorce and
the obligatory seizure of his assets did the job. I very much doubt whether
the service advertised is the same bloke.
I met his son at Caulfield about 15 years ago and he was using Read
Rating's pager service, although he did say he had his old man's prices
handy too. I didn't take too much notice at the time as it wasn't until
later that another bloke confirmed he was indeed junior Magic.

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 6:38 AM SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net> wrote:

> Thanks Norsaint,
>
> Is he alive do you  know?
>
> Just got my interest after somebody that follows me, re tweeted about the
> 27 winners they(Mr Magic....claiming to be one and the same) picked in
> Sydney yesterday.
>
> with their algorithms and logarithms!
>
> All after the race as far as I can tell.
>
> https://twitter.com/MrMagicRacing
>
> Steve
> On 9/02/2019 8:05 pm, norsaintpublishing at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yep, the one and same.
>
> On Sat., 9 Feb. 2019, 7:12 pm SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net wrote:
>
>> Can somebody refresh my memory?
>>
>> What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided
>> computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>>
>> Bob Robertson?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Racing mailing list
>> Racing at ausrace.com
>> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 08:43:32 2019
From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 08:43:32 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
	<CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAJfP4b1tj+OBfJODiMPPtGu7-RwVObt+UpLtiNS4Bfz_O46bDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Steve,
    I got this response from a racing friend in Adelaide.

"I just checked the ABN no..it was only registered in Jan 2019 and place of
business is Albury NSW.
I would somehow doubt it was Bob Robertson...i will ask him when i see him.
.he  wasn't at the races yesterday. .strangely.
These days he just does Melb"

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 6:38 AM SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net> wrote:

> Thanks Norsaint,
>
> Is he alive do you  know?
>
> Just got my interest after somebody that follows me, re tweeted about the
> 27 winners they(Mr Magic....claiming to be one and the same) picked in
> Sydney yesterday.
>
> with their algorithms and logarithms!
>
> All after the race as far as I can tell.
>
> https://twitter.com/MrMagicRacing
>
> Steve
> On 9/02/2019 8:05 pm, norsaintpublishing at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yep, the one and same.
>
> On Sat., 9 Feb. 2019, 7:12 pm SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net wrote:
>
>> Can somebody refresh my memory?
>>
>> What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who provided
>> computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>>
>> Bob Robertson?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Racing mailing list
>> Racing at ausrace.com
>> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb 10 09:17:26 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 09:17:26 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Today's make-believe bookmaker
In-Reply-To: <5c50d8f6.1c69fb81.a3132.9079@mx.google.com>
References: <00ac01d4b821$c646fe80$52d4fb80$@ozemail.com.au>
	<5c50d8f6.1c69fb81.a3132.9079@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01d4c0c5$3ebf4600$bc3dd200$@ozemail.com.au>

Tested "Australia's biggest Bookmaker" today, with $5 Place bets:

 

$5 @ 18.0 place, turned from 71/18 to 41/11, 2 different horses, $5 @ 11.0 place, turned from 41/11 to 31/8.

 

Laughable? Pathetic? Incompetent? Gutless? No word could be too scathing.

 

As another said to me "I'd not feed their staff let alone pay them!".

 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Ashley Latham
Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2019 9:52 AM
To: AusRace Racing Discussion List <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Today's make-believe bookmaker

 

I had a similar experience, but used a different method to create the online bookie ripple.

 

Accidently clicked Betfair screen on a busy Sat morning, which happened to be a nothing race in NZ. No real harm, $15 on at 16.0, let it ride bravado. Checked online price out of curiosity, 26.0, lesson learned. However staggered to see the online bookie reaction, all shortened 1 to 2 turns moments later.

 

I?m embarrassed to say it won of course.

 

Ashley

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

From: L.B.Loveday <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 9:27 AM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: [AusRace] Today's make-believe bookmaker

 

Just for fun, this morning I put the following $1 bets on with Sportsbetting:

 

Mornington 2/11 @ $3.45, considered, accepted and immediately turned to $2.95

Gosford 4/3 @ $5.10, considered, accepted and immediately turned to $4.55

Ascot 7/2 @ $5.60, considered, accepted and immediately turned to $4.80

Launceston 5/1 @ $73.0, considered, accepted and immediately turned to $53.0

 

Just in case you missed the first line, they were all $1 bets!

 

 

 

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From essbee at internode.on.net  Sun Feb 10 11:36:29 2019
From: essbee at internode.on.net (SteveB)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 11:36:29 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Mr Magic
In-Reply-To: <CAJfP4b2dTHpHd74-nH=6QgpsEJt7qaPpfDc8CUhDH3eegUCcUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <73f4f776-7d7f-0f00-0c73-f2ebd77d6084@internode.on.net>
	<CAJfP4b0x3xpZtYJhTN9PM5S+k7wbO_MDN54Qg-0AeXdL17TKUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<6bd3d0f1-aa82-696d-62a9-a92c78291a38@internode.on.net>
	<CAJfP4b2dTHpHd74-nH=6QgpsEJt7qaPpfDc8CUhDH3eegUCcUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <df58012b-7840-8986-3bc8-5fde404de15a@internode.on.net>

Thanks Nick,

My long gone mother, used to follow them in the Australian religiously, 
and reckoned they? were great.

Considering Brian Courtney and other top trainers(neighbours) of the 
day, used to give her plenty of tips that she reckoned were not so good, 
then he must have been ok.

 From memory, his dad was a great footballer in WA and Vic.

I would assume this new service is just a scam.

Steve




On 10/02/2019 8:00 am, norsaintpublishing at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> ? ? his name came up in discussion? sometime last year from memory.
> He can be found at Morphettville every week in a social capacity and 
> having what appears very small wagers with the one bookie in his bar 
> area. Was always seated with 3 or 4 others sharing a bottle of 
> something or other. In the winter he'd leave early so he could get 
> home to watch the Crows play.? I'm not sure if the percentages got him 
> in the end or whether a divorce and the obligatory seizure of his 
> assets did the job. I very much doubt whether the service advertised 
> is the same bloke.
> I met his son at Caulfield about 15 years ago and he was using Read 
> Rating's pager service, although he did say he had his old man's 
> prices handy too. I didn't take too much notice at the time as it 
> wasn't until later that another bloke confirmed he was indeed junior 
> Magic.
>
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 6:38 AM SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net 
> <mailto:essbee at internode.on.net>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks Norsaint,
>
>     Is he alive do you? know?
>
>     Just got my interest after somebody that follows me, re tweeted
>     about the 27 winners they(Mr Magic....claiming to be one and the
>     same) picked in Sydney yesterday.
>
>     with their algorithms and logarithms!
>
>     All after the race as far as I can tell.
>
>     https://twitter.com/MrMagicRacing
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 9/02/2019 8:05 pm, norsaintpublishing at gmail.com
>     <mailto:norsaintpublishing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     Yep, the one and same.
>>
>>     On Sat., 9 Feb. 2019, 7:12 pm SteveB <essbee at internode.on.net
>>     <mailto:essbee at internode.on.net> wrote:
>>
>>         Can somebody refresh my memory?
>>
>>         What was the name of the guy, known(I think) as Mr Magic, who
>>         provided
>>         computer tips(or prices) in the Australian, in the long ago?
>>
>>         Bob Robertson?
>>
>>         Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Racing mailing list
>>         Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com>
>>         http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Racing mailing list
>>     Racing at ausrace.com  <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com>
>>     http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>     _______________________________________________
>     Racing mailing list
>     Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com>
>     http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
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From mikemcbain at tpg.com.au  Tue Feb 12 09:02:45 2019
From: mikemcbain at tpg.com.au (mikemcbain at tpg.com.au)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:02:45 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Bet365 Disappearing Dollars
Message-ID: <000201d4c255$8555abe0$900103a0$@tpg.com.au>

Ausracers

 

I have been out of action and may have missed something on the attached
report but it is the most concerning thing I have come across recently?

 

Any news or thoughts?

 

Mike.

 

https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/a
mp/

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From mikemcbain at tpg.com.au  Tue Feb 12 16:39:51 2019
From: mikemcbain at tpg.com.au (mikemcbain at tpg.com.au)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 16:39:51 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
Message-ID: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

 

https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Tue Feb 12 18:45:16 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:45:16 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>
Message-ID: <00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>

Mike,

 

Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.

 

The story does not ring true to me.

 

LBL

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of mikemcbain at tpg.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

 

https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/

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From creel1958 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 19:38:10 2019
From: creel1958 at gmail.com (Ashley Latham)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 19:38:10 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>
	<00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>

Hi Len,

Beg to differ, 2 cases spring to mind.

Without naming names, one of Winx?s more dapper fans had an issue with a dormant NSW Tab account and several thousands missing. Also a former working acquaintance in Canberra had his TasTote account pilfered on several occasions, by an insider. It does happen. Nothing would surprise.

Ashley
 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: L.B.Loveday
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:46 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

Mike,

Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.

The story does not ring true to me.

LBL

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of mikemcbain at tpg.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/

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From essbee at internode.on.net  Tue Feb 12 20:59:53 2019
From: essbee at internode.on.net (SteveB)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 20:59:53 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>
	<00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>
	<5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <f52f788e-a8d1-913f-97b4-1ca5c749b921@internode.on.net>

 From twitter.....

Update on #*365gate* <https://twitter.com/hashtag/365gate?src=hash> - 
Bkrahe 2 Bet365 0 - phone call to say my acct WAS compromised (surprise 
surprise), yet it isn't their reponsibility - they will however refund 
my money as a matter of "goodwill" - $3440 sitting back in a brand new 
acct for me right now #*JUSTICE* 
<https://twitter.com/hashtag/JUSTICE?src=hash>

On 12/02/2019 7:38 pm, Ashley Latham wrote:
>
> Hi Len,
>
> Beg to differ, 2 cases spring to mind.
>
> Without naming names, one of Winx?s more dapper fans had an issue with 
> a dormant NSW Tab account and several thousands missing. Also a former 
> working acquaintance in Canberra had his TasTote account pilfered on 
> several occasions, by an insider. It does happen. Nothing would surprise.
>
> Ashley
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> Windows 10
>
> *From: *L.B.Loveday <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:46 PM
> *To: *'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <mailto:racing at ausrace.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
>
> Mike,
>
> Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.
>
> The story does not ring true to me.
>
> LBL
>
> *From:*Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> *On Behalf Of 
> *mikemcbain at tpg.com.au
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
> *To:* racing at ausrace.com
> *Subject:* [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
>
> Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?
>
> https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Racing mailing list
> Racing at ausrace.com
> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Tue Feb 12 22:37:11 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:37:11 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <f52f788e-a8d1-913f-97b4-1ca5c749b921@internode.on.net>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>	<00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>	<5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>
	<f52f788e-a8d1-913f-97b4-1ca5c749b921@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <010101d4c2c7$4c5b2870$e5117950$@ozemail.com.au>

Ashley,

 

 

"Last week I went to place a bet with my Bet365 account and found I had insufficient funds. So I went to make to a deposit"

 

Why it did not ring true to me (I did not say it could not be true, let alone that it was not true):

When he logged in, the balance would have been shown, yet he did not notice it was approximately zero instead of $3.5k, or at least less than he tried to bet, presumably <= $300 as the cancelled withdrawal was sufficient? He is "a professional punter", so I'd expect him to regularly access the account, unlike the dormant one to which you refer, with a moderate balance such that he was all-but empty after the withdrawals, but he did not notice his account being short $2,000 & $1,440 (odd amount!) a week apart? You may not notice those discrepancies in a big balance, but most would in a moderate balance.

 

He then "jumped on the Live Chat and requested a full account statement (you can?t just download one from their site)". You CAN immediately display the last year's Pending Bets, Settled bets, Withdrawals and Deposits (in 2x 6mth lots), which covers all relevant transactions, albeit without full details, and I'd expect a professional punter to know that. Surely he would do that on the spot rather than wait? Even if he also ordered a "full account statement".

 

Of course I could come up with reasons for those actions, but as I said, it just did not ring true to me.

 

I presumed that if it were true it would be an internal, but the taking of 3 varying amounts close together from an active account, leaving it close to zero is, to me, a strange way to do it.

 

Anyway I got a chuckle when he wrote "The NTRC will deal with it in terms of integrity". Integrity is, in my opinion, something the NTRC knows approximately zero about.

 

There was a case in SA where a TAB programmer took out a ticket on the Footy Quadrella, and if it was a big dividend (it was in the early days of computing, and the dividends not immediately displayed & I think that product has long gone), he would access the computer and change the selections on his ticket to the correct ones and print a new ticket with the same barcode as the original. He also printed tickets and cashed them just before the 6? month deadline was up for claiming bets. He got 30 months jail. The CEO of SATAB tried to tell me that he stole from the TAB, whereas the quadrella fraud was clearly stealing from punters by diluting the dividend.   

 

LBL

 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of SteveB
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 9:00 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

>From twitter.....

Update on  <https://twitter.com/hashtag/365gate?src=hash> #365gate - Bkrahe 2 Bet365 0 - phone call to say my acct WAS compromised (surprise surprise), yet it isn't their reponsibility - they will however refund my money as a matter of "goodwill" - $3440 sitting back in a brand new acct for me right now  <https://twitter.com/hashtag/JUSTICE?src=hash> #JUSTICE

On 12/02/2019 7:38 pm, Ashley Latham wrote:

Hi Len,

 

Beg to differ, 2 cases spring to mind.

 

Without naming names, one of Winx?s more dapper fans had an issue with a dormant NSW Tab account and several thousands missing. Also a former working acquaintance in Canberra had his TasTote account pilfered on several occasions, by an insider. It does happen. Nothing would surprise.

 

Ashley

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

From: L.B.Loveday <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:46 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Mike,

 

Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.

 

The story does not ring true to me.

 

LBL

 

From: Racing  <mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of mikemcbain at tpg.com.au <mailto:mikemcbain at tpg.com.au> 
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

 

 <https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/> https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/

 





_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com> 
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com

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From tonymoffat at bigpond.com  Fri Feb 15 15:33:47 2019
From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 12:33:47 +0800
Subject: [AusRace] Atomic Barriers - a system (Post Position Positives)
Message-ID: <000101d4c4e7$a50402e0$ef0c08a0$@bigpond.com>

I paid a dollar for this - and I think I was diddled.

 You had to send the money, a note in '68,  with a stamped self-addressed
envelope to an address in Wollongong and wait for the postie. 
It is a printed book, not Xerox'd like so many, with rusty staples now and a
geometric pattern on the cover.

There is a lot of reading within, a lot of wisdom, and s/he reverts to
calling them barriers in the text. The system is meant to be used on
metropolitan courses only, as was the mantra often from way back, but some
of the results have Hawkesbury and Newcastle .

The system is to watch and observe and record the first three races to
determine where the winners are 'arriving' from, wide or railing, then
determine your bets on the remaining races from this information.

It is needlessly complicated, somewhat, and a review of these, from then,
shows that this was the 'big' secret, this complication, this new
information, this weapon to beat the enemy, the bookmaker.

So you have complied with the first rule, stood out and observed and now
noted that ' a railer' figured in the first, and outside 9 appeared in the
second. All that remains is to record the starting barrier of the next
winner, TAB 2 or 1 against TAB 6 and 10. Seeing that 6 is Greg Ryan you are
sure to get a run and a bit and 10 is the nicely named Mozart's Work.
Waiting, watching, wondering.

6 won and this sets the course for the days punting, it seems, the 9 and
outside brigade, with a qualifying rule, senior riders otherwise take one or
other of the two railers (barriers 1 or 2 it means) with a senior jockey.
You can apply another tentative rule, less than 20/1 ($21?).

There is a page to show you how to choose the runners. Count the entrants
and record the number. In the last race this is 10.
Railers are calculated from 10, deduct the barrier number of each from this
- the least number(s) are the selections.
(I know, why not pick barrier 1 and two, but that wouldn't be a system would
it?)

There is  sheet in the book which shows you what to pick - 11 runners,
inside 1 and 2, outside 10 and 11 (yes, it says that)

Quirindi R4 8Our AnnaMaria and 9Wee Lassie (3rd)
Quirindi R5 5Kennywyn and 7Verna 
Quirindi R6  13Whisper DeLovely and Bel Diablo
Quiirindi  R7 San Francisco and Evangelist 
Quirindi R8  Mighty Like and Tully Ho

Complicated for credibility  do you think.

Now, if there was a system that required you to back Greg Ryan everywhere -
that might work.

Quirindi has memories for me. The best pies for starters
The golf course is great, treed but open if that makes sense and if you have
an affinity for finding trees on course
(as I do) well you will understand.
Over the road from the course is the rugby ground where I played twice, and
got injured as a school boy which closed
down the career of the boy who was going to be in the front row for
Australia, tight head too. It cost me a bursary/scholarship to
Waverley, a good,great rugby place.

Cheers

Tony


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com




From tonymoffat at bigpond.com  Fri Feb 15 18:56:44 2019
From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 15:56:44 +0800
Subject: [AusRace] Atomic Barriers - a system (Post Position Positives)
In-Reply-To: <000101d4c4e7$a50402e0$ef0c08a0$@bigpond.com>
References: <000101d4c4e7$a50402e0$ef0c08a0$@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <001701d4c503$ff2d4e40$fd87eac0$@bigpond.com>

The internet is slow today out here in the sticks. Use restore line breaks
if formatting is so-so
Results
Race 4 - Unp, 3rd Wee Lassie $2.20
Race 5 - Unp, Unp Verna (price) was subbed by 1 Harbouring 
Race 6 - Bel Diablo won $2.50, Whisper De Lovely was subbed by Pierone (Unp)
Race 7 - San Francisco won $2.50, Unp
Race 8 - 1 and 11 subbed by 7 and 6 - 6Phuket won $3.10.

The system author may lay claim to 3 winners in there.

(a) The first three races decide the betting for the remainder -'railers' or
'outside 9's'
(b) Senior riders from the outside 9 position? - substitute to inside
runners if required (in order to get real jockeys on your selections)
(c) You can sub if your runner is more than 20/1 ($21)

Simple, elegant, and no thank you - the real jockey quip comes from the
system author, not me.
Greg Ryan won 3 and placed in a few and the jockey challenge.

Cheers

Tony

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Tony Moffat
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 12:34 PM
 Atomic Barriers - a system (Post Position Positives)

I paid a dollar for this - and I think I was diddled.

 You had to send the money, a note in '68,  with a stamped self-addressed
envelope to an address in Wollongong and wait for the postie. 
It is a printed book, not Xerox'd like so many, with rusty staples now and a
geometric pattern on the cover.

There is a lot of reading within, a lot of wisdom, and s/he reverts to
calling them barriers in the text. The system is meant to be used on
metropolitan courses only, as was the mantra often from way back, but some
of the results have Hawkesbury and Newcastle .

The system is to watch and observe and record the first three races to
determine where the winners are 'arriving' from, wide or railing, then
determine your bets on the remaining races from this information.

It is needlessly complicated, somewhat, and a review of these, from then,
shows that this was the 'big' secret, this complication, this new
information, this weapon to beat the enemy, the bookmaker.

So you have complied with the first rule, stood out and observed and now
noted that ' a railer' figured in the first, and outside 9 appeared in the
second. All that remains is to record the starting barrier of the next
winner, TAB 2 or 1 against TAB 6 and 10. Seeing that 6 is Greg Ryan you are
sure to get a run and a bit and 10 is the nicely named Mozart's Work.
Waiting, watching, wondering.

6 won and this sets the course for the days punting, it seems, the 9 and
outside brigade, with a qualifying rule, senior riders otherwise take one or
other of the two railers (barriers 1 or 2 it means) with a senior jockey.
You can apply another tentative rule, less than 20/1 ($21?).

There is a page to show you how to choose the runners. Count the entrants
and record the number. In the last race this is 10.
Railers are calculated from 10, deduct the barrier number of each from this
- the least number(s) are the selections.
(I know, why not pick barrier 1 and two, but that wouldn't be a system would
it?)

There is  sheet in the book which shows you what to pick - 11 runners,
inside 1 and 2, outside 10 and 11 (yes, it says that)

Quirindi R4 8Our AnnaMaria and 9Wee Lassie (3rd) Quirindi R5 5Kennywyn and
7Verna Quirindi R6  13Whisper DeLovely and Bel Diablo Quiirindi  R7 San
Francisco and Evangelist Quirindi R8  Mighty Like and Tully Ho

Complicated for credibility  do you think.

Now, if there was a system that required you to back Greg Ryan everywhere -
that might work.

Quirindi has memories for me. The best pies for starters The golf course is
great, treed but open if that makes sense and if you have an affinity for
finding trees on course (as I do) well you will understand.
Over the road from the course is the rugby ground where I played twice, and
got injured as a school boy which closed down the career of the boy who was
going to be in the front row for Australia, tight head too. It cost me a
bursary/scholarship to Waverley, a good,great rugby place.

Cheers

Tony


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com




From RaceStats at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 17 16:37:10 2019
From: RaceStats at hotmail.com (Race Stats)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 05:37:10 +0000
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <010101d4c2c7$4c5b2870$e5117950$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>
	<00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>
	<5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>
	<f52f788e-a8d1-913f-97b4-1ca5c749b921@internode.on.net>
	<010101d4c2c7$4c5b2870$e5117950$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB5821EF7DDDF1C446DCA5B865BB620@MN2PR04MB5821.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

What doesn?t ring true to me is that he has a Bet365 account open and classes himself as a professional punter.
As Len would know, that part doesn?t add up.
However, for the disappearing dollars, it has happened on many occasions with the TAB and Corporates, almost always an inside job, that they?ll never admit to.
Just like getting on after the jump, which apparently cannot happen, but always does!
Lindsay

From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 10:37 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

Ashley,


"Last week I went to place a bet with my Bet365 account and found I had insufficient funds. So I went to make to a deposit"

Why it did not ring true to me (I did not say it could not be true, let alone that it was not true):

When he logged in, the balance would have been shown, yet he did not notice it was approximately zero instead of $3.5k, or at least less than he tried to bet, presumably <= $300 as the cancelled withdrawal was sufficient? He is "a professional punter", so I'd expect him to regularly access the account, unlike the dormant one to which you refer, with a moderate balance such that he was all-but empty after the withdrawals, but he did not notice his account being short $2,000 & $1,440 (odd amount!) a week apart? You may not notice those discrepancies in a big balance, but most would in a moderate balance.

He then "jumped on the Live Chat and requested a full account statement (you can?t just download one from their site)". You CAN immediately display the last year's Pending Bets, Settled bets, Withdrawals and Deposits (in 2x 6mth lots), which covers all relevant transactions, albeit without full details, and I'd expect a professional punter to know that. Surely he would do that on the spot rather than wait? Even if he also ordered a "full account statement".

Of course I could come up with reasons for those actions, but as I said, it just did not ring true to me.

I presumed that if it were true it would be an internal, but the taking of 3 varying amounts close together from an active account, leaving it close to zero is, to me, a strange way to do it.

Anyway I got a chuckle when he wrote "The NTRC will deal with it in terms of integrity". Integrity is, in my opinion, something the NTRC knows approximately zero about.

There was a case in SA where a TAB programmer took out a ticket on the Footy Quadrella, and if it was a big dividend (it was in the early days of computing, and the dividends not immediately displayed & I think that product has long gone), he would access the computer and change the selections on his ticket to the correct ones and print a new ticket with the same barcode as the original. He also printed tickets and cashed them just before the 6? month deadline was up for claiming bets. He got 30 months jail. The CEO of SATAB tried to tell me that he stole from the TAB, whereas the quadrella fraud was clearly stealing from punters by diluting the dividend.

LBL


From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of SteveB
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 9:00 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars


From twitter.....

Update on #365gate<https://twitter.com/hashtag/365gate?src=hash> - Bkrahe 2 Bet365 0 - phone call to say my acct WAS compromised (surprise surprise), yet it isn't their reponsibility - they will however refund my money as a matter of "goodwill" - $3440 sitting back in a brand new acct for me right now #JUSTICE<https://twitter.com/hashtag/JUSTICE?src=hash>
On 12/02/2019 7:38 pm, Ashley Latham wrote:
Hi Len,

Beg to differ, 2 cases spring to mind.

Without naming names, one of Winx?s more dapper fans had an issue with a dormant NSW Tab account and several thousands missing. Also a former working acquaintance in Canberra had his TasTote account pilfered on several occasions, by an insider. It does happen. Nothing would surprise.

Ashley

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: L.B.Loveday<mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:46 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'<mailto:racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

Mike,

Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.

The story does not ring true to me.

LBL

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com><mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of mikemcbain at tpg.com.au<mailto:mikemcbain at tpg.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com<mailto:racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/



_______________________________________________

Racing mailing list

Racing at ausrace.com<mailto:Racing at ausrace.com>

http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com
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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb 17 18:06:41 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 18:06:41 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB5821EF7DDDF1C446DCA5B865BB620@MN2PR04MB5821.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <000201d4c295$61d435c0$257ca140$@tpg.com.au>	<00e801d4c2a6$e6a7e6f0$b3f7b4d0$@ozemail.com.au>	<5c6285f4.1c69fb81.38fab.5145@mx.google.com>	<f52f788e-a8d1-913f-97b4-1ca5c749b921@internode.on.net>	<010101d4c2c7$4c5b2870$e5117950$@ozemail.com.au>
	<MN2PR04MB5821EF7DDDF1C446DCA5B865BB620@MN2PR04MB5821.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <002201d4c68f$58817890$098469b0$@ozemail.com.au>

Before computerisation, betting after the jump on the SATAB was common, and betting after the race was run was also done. After computerisation, and about 20 years ago, one could often get on after the jump in the Morphettville Auditorium & I complained about it, despite being one who could take advantage were I so inclined (I bet win/place with the bookie, exotics on the TAB). Got some smart-arse, patronising reply - they assumed I was just another disgruntled punter trying to find someone else to blame for losing.

 

So I teed up with one of the operators to let me know next time a race was still open after the jump, he called out, I glanced at the telecast, put $100 on the leader, and sent a copy of the bet to SATAB. Did that cause a stink! - I got written and oral apologies, complete with an explanation of the software bug that caused a late close-off under certain circumstances. And yes, that particular avenue for betting after the jump was promptly closed.

 

That takes me back to the manual days of Quaddies (Fourtrellas as they were called)- you could bet, eg:

 

Leg 1:  #1 5 units, #3, 2 units, #7, 3 units (total 10)

Leg 2: #2, 1 unit (total 1)

Leg 3: #1, 6 units,  #8, 4 units (total 10)

Leg 4: #4, 1 unit, #5, 3 units, #10, 1 unit (total 5),

 

And the operator would multiply 10 x 1 x10 x5 = 500 units, @ 50c= $250.

 

One ticket, the girls were not PhD's, but got it done quickly and accurately. Nowadays, with incredible computing power, and much of the labour transferred to punters, you need18 tickets!

 

 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Race Stats
Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2019 4:37 PM
To: AusRace Racing Discussion List <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

What doesn?t ring true to me is that he has a Bet365 account open and classes himself as a professional punter.

As Len would know, that part doesn?t add up.

However, for the disappearing dollars, it has happened on many occasions with the TAB and Corporates, almost always an inside job, that they?ll never admit to.

Just like getting on after the jump, which apparently cannot happen, but always does!

Lindsay 

 

From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 10:37 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Ashley,

 

 

"Last week I went to place a bet with my Bet365 account and found I had insufficient funds. So I went to make to a deposit"

 

Why it did not ring true to me (I did not say it could not be true, let alone that it was not true):

 

When he logged in, the balance would have been shown, yet he did not notice it was approximately zero instead of $3.5k, or at least less than he tried to bet, presumably <= $300 as the cancelled withdrawal was sufficient? He is "a professional punter", so I'd expect him to regularly access the account, unlike the dormant one to which you refer, with a moderate balance such that he was all-but empty after the withdrawals, but he did not notice his account being short $2,000 & $1,440 (odd amount!) a week apart? You may not notice those discrepancies in a big balance, but most would in a moderate balance.

 

He then "jumped on the Live Chat and requested a full account statement (you can?t just download one from their site)". You CAN immediately display the last year's Pending Bets, Settled bets, Withdrawals and Deposits (in 2x 6mth lots), which covers all relevant transactions, albeit without full details, and I'd expect a professional punter to know that. Surely he would do that on the spot rather than wait? Even if he also ordered a "full account statement".

 

Of course I could come up with reasons for those actions, but as I said, it just did not ring true to me.

 

I presumed that if it were true it would be an internal, but the taking of 3 varying amounts close together from an active account, leaving it close to zero is, to me, a strange way to do it.

 

Anyway I got a chuckle when he wrote "The NTRC will deal with it in terms of integrity". Integrity is, in my opinion, something the NTRC knows approximately zero about.

 

There was a case in SA where a TAB programmer took out a ticket on the Footy Quadrella, and if it was a big dividend (it was in the early days of computing, and the dividends not immediately displayed & I think that product has long gone), he would access the computer and change the selections on his ticket to the correct ones and print a new ticket with the same barcode as the original. He also printed tickets and cashed them just before the 6? month deadline was up for claiming bets. He got 30 months jail. The CEO of SATAB tried to tell me that he stole from the TAB, whereas the quadrella fraud was clearly stealing from punters by diluting the dividend.   

 

LBL

 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com <mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> > On Behalf Of SteveB
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 9:00 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

>From twitter.....

Update on  <https://twitter.com/hashtag/365gate?src=hash> #365gate - Bkrahe 2 Bet365 0 - phone call to say my acct WAS compromised (surprise surprise), yet it isn't their reponsibility - they will however refund my money as a matter of "goodwill" - $3440 sitting back in a brand new acct for me right now  <https://twitter.com/hashtag/JUSTICE?src=hash> #JUSTICE

On 12/02/2019 7:38 pm, Ashley Latham wrote:

Hi Len,

 

Beg to differ, 2 cases spring to mind.

 

Without naming names, one of Winx?s more dapper fans had an issue with a dormant NSW Tab account and several thousands missing. Also a former working acquaintance in Canberra had his TasTote account pilfered on several occasions, by an insider. It does happen. Nothing would surprise.

 

Ashley

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

From: L.B.Loveday <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 6:46 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: Re: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Mike,

 

Previous one, and this, worked fine, went to the same page.

 

The story does not ring true to me.

 

LBL

 

From: Racing  <mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of mikemcbain at tpg.com.au <mailto:mikemcbain at tpg.com.au> 
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2019 4:40 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: [AusRace] Disappearing Dollars

 

Not sure why I pasted an incorrect link to this story earlier today?

 

 <https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/> https://www.championbets.com.au/bookmakers/ben-bet365-disappearing-dollars/

 

 

_______________________________________________
Racing mailing list
Racing at ausrace.com <mailto:Racing at ausrace.com> 
http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Wed Feb 20 13:13:37 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 13:13:37 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Today's joke Bookmaker
Message-ID: <002401d4c8c1$e56371d0$b02a5570$@ozemail.com.au>

Asked for $40 Win @ 41.0 & $40 Place @ 14.0 Strath 4/5 from UniBet - they
don't have an e/w facility as such, but I transmitted them simultaneously
from the one Bet Slip.

 

They predictably cut the Win to $25 as they are entitled to (if I enter the
MBL amount it is manually checked anyway, and they may take a little over -
don't ask, don't get) and rejected the Place bet in full "price changed" -
in consequence of my simultaneous bet!

 

Integrity matches their competence.

 

LBL

 

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Wed Feb 20 13:19:41 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 13:19:41 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Today's joke Bookmaker
In-Reply-To: <002401d4c8c1$e56371d0$b02a5570$@ozemail.com.au>
References: <002401d4c8c1$e56371d0$b02a5570$@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <003001d4c8c2$bddbdb60$39939220$@ozemail.com.au>

OOOOOOPs - Stawell 4/5. 

 

From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2019 1:14 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com>
Subject: [AusRace] Today's joke Bookmaker

 

Asked for $40 Win @ 41.0 & $40 Place @ 14.0 Strath 4/5 from UniBet - they
don't have an e/w facility as such, but I transmitted them simultaneously
from the one Bet Slip.

 

They predictably cut the Win to $25 as they are entitled to (if I enter the
MBL amount it is manually checked anyway, and they may take a little over -
don't ask, don't get) and rejected the Place bet in full "price changed" -
in consequence of my simultaneous bet!

 

Integrity matches their competence.

 

LBL

 

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Thu Feb 21 09:07:54 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 09:07:54 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] VOP
Message-ID: <001201d4c968$bc495010$34dbf030$@ozemail.com.au>

What junk VOPs for Stawell 3 yesterday - a final 138% market, divorced from
their charter to base VOP/SP on on-line bookmaker prices as provided by
Dynamic Odds:

 



 

cf VOP:

3.60

5.50

13.0

14.0

5.00

3.00

5.00

41.0

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb 24 09:34:20 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 09:34:20 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] TopSport
Message-ID: <00af01d4cbc7$ec4321e0$c4c965a0$@ozemail.com.au>

TS seem to have come into capital - they gave everyone, existing or new customers, who deposited $250 or more during Feb $250 bonus bets - no asking, no code, no exceptions.

 

And they have become much more competitive - eg Friday's 54 races, from the 9 bookies I monitor:

 

TopSport lowest Final Market%   37

Other 8 bookies I monitor, between them, 15

Equal (to 1 decimal place), 2

 

That is a very strong performance.

Yet they still manually check every bet I make before accepting, even $5, and even after MBL time. I wish I was as good as I'm seemingly presumed to be!

 

LBL

 

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Sun Feb 24 15:44:46 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:44:46 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] Hamish McLachlan interviews GW
Message-ID: <00d001d4cbfb$ac5ccde0$051669a0$@ozemail.com.au>

FIRST LADY KEEPS HER LIFE ON TRACK

The leading trainer admits staying confident can be harder than it sounds

WINX may well be the Queen of the Turf right now, but Gai Waterhouse has
long been dubbed the First Lady of Australian racing. The daughter of Hall
of Fame trainer Tommy "TJ" Smith, and given the same recognition herself,
Gai has been surrounded by horses, racing and high-profile owners all her
life. Now a grandmother, but not much seems to have changed. Before becoming
one of the country's leading trainers, Gai turned her mind to acting, both
here and abroad. Then it was to training, where she has always had the
knack. Gai's first runner won. Her first metropolitan runner won. Her first
runner in a jumps race won and her first Group 1 runner won. We talked Young
Doctors, big bets, strict mothers, winning the Cup, working with parents,
the importance of balance, and matronly haircuts.

HM: Is it true your father used to take you hunting duck eggs - and you
never had a day when you didn't find one?

GW: Ha - well, that's true! Dad used to take me riding in the morning when I
was a small child, on the front of Cornflakes, who was his stable pony. We
would ride out together into the middle of Randwick racecourse to watch
track work. Afterwards we'd go home via Centennial Park, and we would always
look next to the lake for any duck eggs, and somehow we always used to be
able to find them! I thought Dad was the best egg hunter in the world! And
then one day I was excitedly hunting around and I hugged Dad and must have
grabbed him by the side, and I heard a bit of a crack and a squash . Dad had
been bringing the duck eggs with him and hiding them for me to find all
along! He was such a caring man to think of doing that for me. We never went
looking for eggs again after that!

HM: The game was up! Gabriel Marie Waterhouse . have you ever actually been
called Gabriel Marie?

GW: Mum apparently said on day one: "It's too big a name for such a small
child! She's such a happy young thing . I'll call her Gai." It's odd really,
given my parents named me Gabriel Marie, but no, no one has ever called me
Gabriel Marie in my life! I may have been called Gabriel by a few of the
teachers I had at school, but rarely. It's always been Gai!

HM: Like Pele, Madonna, Cher or Le Bron . one name is enough! Your mother
was very strict, wasn't she?

GW: She was - but both my parents were very strict. Dad would never pull the
strap, but Mum wouldn't be scared in doing so! She'd be in jail nowadays -
my, how times have changed - but in those days they'd give you a whack
without any second thoughts. I've got a few marks from the feather duster on
the back of my legs, I can tell you! Back then, what Mum and Dad said went;
there was no grey! Dad was the same when we worked together in the stables.
I think people knew where they stood with Dad, and as a result it was easy
to work with him.

HM: A few of us are familiar with the "my way or the highway philosophy!" I
found jackarooing for dad impossible - we were always clashing - but a lot
of fathers and kids don't get on so well in business together. But you
seemed to have a great relationship with TJ. Was that always the case?

GW: Not always, no - in fact, not at all! But I adored the ground Dad walked
upon, Hamish. It was such a wonderful childhood growing up with Mum and Dad.
I'm an only child, so I think when that's the case you get very close to
your parents. But when I started training, being a strongheaded woman, I had
a few of my own thoughts on things. And I'm not saying they were right - far
from it - his were right, and mine were wrong, but I became quite outspoken
about what I wanted to do with my horses and where they'd run. And that did
cause a few blues, but I'm lucky I married Rob (Waterhouse) because Rob and
Dad had a wonderful relationship. Rob was like the son that Dad never had,
and they got on so well. If Dad and I were ever having a tense moment, Dad
would say to Rob: "Go and speak to the girl!" and Rob would come and talk to
me, smooth the waters, and then I'd settle down, and we'd all move on!

HM: He was the master of the three-minute phone call, I'm told.

GW: Dad taught me everything to do with horses, as you know, Hamish, but
also he taught me so much about dealing with people. I sat opposite him
every morning of my life when I was growing up and he would be speaking to
everyone from Bob Hawke, the prime minister, to Robert Askin, the premier of
New South Wales, to Tristan Antico, one of the leading businesspeople. He'd
ring them, they'd speak for about three minutes as you say, and then he
would get on and speak to the next client. Before facts and texts and emails
and video and Facebook ever came in, Dad was the master of communication. He
was a man that had no education, Hamish. He basically had to teach himself
how to read and write, and he only went to school for three days. The
teacher whipped him, so he jumped out the window and ran away, and he never
went back! So Dad was a completely self-made man. He had a remarkable
rapport with people and his amazing ability to size up a situation and
capitalise on it was remarkable.

HM: Did he literally only go to school for a handful of days?

GW: He left completely uneducated

- he hardly went at all! He lived a long way away and had to ride to school,
but had to work in the mornings because the family had no money. He was
trapping rabbits and selling them on the side of the train station, and then
he'd have to go to school. When he arrived, the teacher said: "You're late!"
and in those days they didn't want to know if you had an excuse. He whacked
him really hard, so Dad thought: "That's it, I'm out of there!" and he never
went back.

HM: And where did he go to, Gai

- out the window to where?

GW: He went to work! He worked, and then he left home at the age of 14. He
was an amateur jockey in the bush and they had the teams, he and his father,
to build the railways, dragging the logs for the railroads. It was tough
work. He was a very industrious and enterprising young man, simply because
he had to be! When he left home at 14, his mother gave him two pounds. That
was his worldly wealth. He got on the train, and on the same train was
George Moore .

HM: Wow .

GW: And George Moore said to little Tommy: "One day I'm going to be a great
jockey". Little Tommy said: "One day I'm going to be a great trainer". Their
fate brought them together! It's funny how life works: there's seemingly
always a plan for us all - we just need to find it somehow!

HM: And they were both right! On the racing: what do all the best horses
have?

GW: Balance. I'm sure of this. The great sportsmen and women, you see, they
all have extraordinary balance. They can think and act so quickly - they are
never off guard or struggling. It's not very different to a horse. The horse
that has natural balance, even though he mightn't have quite the pedigree,
will be far defter on his feet than the horse that might have the great
pedigree, but heavy when he lands on the ground. An athletic horse with good
balance thinks quicker, moves better, carries himself better

- and, I think, wins more.

HM: And your father was keen on giving a horse two things, seemingly, above
all else?

GW: Time and patience. I've tried very hard to give my horses those two
luxuries, too. I say to people with horses: "Just take a deep breath, and
then count to 10!" It's amazing where you can go with a good horse if you
don't overdo them too early on, or you don't need to rush with them. Let
them mature - physically or mentally - or let them heal. Give them all the
time they need. I've won six Golden Slippers, and none of those horses would
have won the Slipper if I'd rushed them like you are often tempted to.
You've got to be able to perceive things with horses and you've got to be
patient, especially when you know you've got a good horse.

HM: When your father passed, you felt a little lost and you asked your
husband the day he died: "What would Dad want me to do?"

GW: I was, and yes, I did. I didn't quite know how to handle it all, so I
asked Rob exactly that and Rob just told me: "Well, he'd just want you to
get on with things". So that was exactly what I did. I came to the track the
next day and carried on as normal because I thought that's what he would
want me to do. I found it very hard to face the world without my dad because
he'd always been beside me on the racetrack and with everything I'd ever
really done. I was lucky enough to have Rob beside me and he took over where
Dad left off. He's always been there as a guiding hand, as someone who cares
about me and wants me to do well. I've been very blessed and very lucky.

HM: You have broken through the glass ceiling as a trainer in this country.
When do you feel you went from "TJ's daughter" to a first-class trainer in
your own right?

GW: I think only really when I first got my licence in 1992. Dad and I
worked very closely until then, but people only started to take notice when
I got my own licence. I was very fortunate for the success I had so early in
my career, with Te Akau Nick winning the Metropolitan Handicap and becoming
my first Group 1 winner pretty soon after obtaining my licence.

HM: One of the best horses your dad ever trained was Kingston Town. Is it
true that you had a lot more than you could afford to lose on Kingston Town
to win the Sydney Cup in 1980?

GW: I did, actually - for me it was a very big bet! I felt confident,
though, as he was such a beauty. I used to like to have a little bet, but I
haven't bet for years now. But the day you are talking about, I did have a
very substantial bet on him - and he didn't let me down!

HM: He rarely let anyone down. Before there was training, there was acting.
Young Doctors, Doctor Who . would you have liked to have been the Cate
Blanchett or Nicole Kidman of your era?

GW: Well, that's what I was intending to be! I had no intention of being
anything but the best actress Australia had produced! I loved my time in
television and on the stage, but it wasn't to be. I always believed in
myself, Hamish, so I never had any doubts that I could do something,
otherwise I wouldn't have tried it. But in reality, I didn't have the
ability, and I realised after working overseas for a few years that acting
wasn't going to be my great calling. Dad kept saying to me, "Come back, Gai,
and work in the family business. That's where you should be!" I listened to
him, came home and began working for him.

HM: Did your life as a thespian do anything to help you as a trainer?

GW: Well, it certainly makes you very resilient! There are lots of
knock-backs! Acting can be a very lonely life, because you're travelling
around a lot, and it's certainly not at all as romantic or as people perhaps
imagine it is. It was far from it for me! When you're living very, very
basically in the cold in the North of England, not knowing where your next
cheque is coming from, it's pretty unimpressive. But it was good because it
made me grow up, and it made me be able to stand on my own two feet and
survive, which is important in racing. It also taught me great timing. I
worked with one of the great comedians, a man called Patrick Cargill, and he
taught me about timing. Timing is very important in life in whatever you do.
Training horses, giving speeches, running businesses - it's all about good
timing, and a bit of luck.

HM: Just on time: you've always been worried about not being able to find
enough time to spend with your family. Have you got the balance right?

GW: I'm not sure. I hope so - I try to. It's a great concern to me as
there's nothing more important than family, is there? I'm lucky enough to
have five grandchildren now, so my life has changed again. I try to spread
myself around with my horses and my family and my grandchildren, and I enjoy
the different challenges that have now come into my life that weren't there
20 years ago. I'm really enjoying this phase: racing, a new business partner
in Adrian Bott, healthy kids, growing grandkids. It's a fun time and I need
to keep making time!

HM: I won't keep you long then . if I could take you to your favourite
moment on the track, where would you be, who would you be watching and who'd
you be with?

GW: It's funny we are talking about family because the times I've enjoyed on
track the most have been when my family have been there. Rob and I share the
same passion, and we've shared it from the moment we met. When we won the
Magic Millions, we had the great joy of Tom and Kate being there with us.
But winning the Melbourne Cup was just an amazing, heady experience. It's
hard to describe to anyone, what winning a race so etched in Australian
history actually means. When you haven't won it, all you do is think about
how you could win it. And then if you are lucky enough to win it like I was
with Fiorente in 2013, all you do is start thinking about how you could do
it again because you just crave the feeling again. Fiorente was such a good
horse. He came back to win the Australian Cup at Flemington the next autumn
before retiring to stud later that year, where he is doing a wonderful job
as a sire.

HM: And what about when you hit the lows and you can't seem to train a
winner? How do you pick yourself up?

GW: You need to somehow keep believing in yourself and not lose your
confidence - and that's sometimes harder than it sounds. When you have a
string of outs, you start to doubt everything you are doing. And to add to
the agony, I'm married to a statistician who well and truly reminds me
whenever things aren't going quite so well, and when my stats aren't up to
scratch for one reason or another. He never lets me get away with a lull for
very long at all - he helps me find a way to get better!

HM: Just on your statistician husband . did he once tell you that your hair
made you look matronly?

GW: He did! Can you believe it! One day he looked at me for longer than
normal, and I thought he was going to say: "Oh, my darling, you've never
looked better - how I love you so!" But he looked at me and said: "Gai

- I think your hair looks a little bit matronly!" I was shocked and I said:
"Well, what should I do?" and he suggested a change to a new look. Well, I
can tell you, I've never rushed out the door quicker to the hairdresser!

HM: Well, it's never looked better! Good luck chasing the autumn riches and
thank you for your time.

GW: Thank you, Hamish - nice to talk.

 

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From lloveday at ozemail.com.au  Mon Feb 25 21:22:06 2019
From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:22:06 +1100
Subject: [AusRace] A new leader
Message-ID: <000c01d4ccf3$f6de25a0$e49a70e0$@ozemail.com.au>

Sportsbetting goes to the lead:

 

Bendigo 1/19, manually knocked back to $1.10 @ 151.0, and turned down to
95.0.

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