[AusRace] peace

Rob Waterhouse robbie at robwaterhouse.com
Fri Nov 30 02:11:58 AEDT 2018

Dear Len and Roger,


Please both continue to contribute. 


Roger, while Len hasn’t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his living on the punt – a man to be respected. 


Interestingly, I was a guest at a small lunch with several of the world’s most successful punters. I posed a question: there are said to be 2,000,000 Australians who have had a betting account with a corporate, how many earn a living (say $100k) punting. The answer ranged from 10 to 50 – a small percentage. Good on Len.


Warm regards,


Rob W 


From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Roger Biggs
Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2018 8:14 PM
To: racing at ausrace.com
Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?


Dear Mr Loveday,


Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response.

As you say ... I really should write about horseracing.


Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the 

statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any

product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the 

home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery.

(AKA Adelaide).


Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well

known on a number of websites.I will not respond further.


Kind regards.


On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:

"women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage.


I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they  were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped.


From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com <mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> > On Behalf Of Roger Biggs
Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM
To: racing at ausrace.com <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> 
Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?


Where is this rather strange thread going???


I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune.


but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road.


Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.)


Can we please go back to "Horse Racing".


On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday <lloveday at ozemail.com.au <mailto:lloveday at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:

General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs).


I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses.


I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty.


I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop.


Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting.


Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration.


I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog  (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me.  






From: Racing <racing-bounces at ausrace.com <mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com> > On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' <racing at ausrace.com <mailto:racing at ausrace.com> >
Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?


Just saw this looking through the Archives.  I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally.


>From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice:


Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age


My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has.


I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes  which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same… I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"…..


Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys.




Has he been medically diagnosed as senile?
Didn't think so.
He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race.
I totally agree.
When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys.
A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all.
Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race.
If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua).
Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban.
Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause.
Mostly the damage is irreparable.
From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com <http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com> ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM
To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List'
Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they?
Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses?


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