From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Fri Nov 9 19:11:35 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:11:35 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Message-ID: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 9 19:59:53 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:59:53 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <000601d4780a$95cdb700$c1692500$@ozemail.com.au> Tony, I give such a negative to 11yos that CC rates nowhere with me - I got 3.10 the place #5 this morning. But I'll watch for a change - with interest. LBL: -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 9 21:09:54 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 21:09:54 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Fri Nov 9 22:45:10 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:45:10 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sat Nov 10 06:37:04 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 06:37:04 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From biggsroger83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 09:14:58 2018 From: biggsroger83 at gmail.com (Roger Biggs) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:14:58 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: CRAFTY CRUISER My wee d/b (+/- 15 yrs) shows 1877 11 YO's for 67 wins (WSR 3.57% POT -65.18%) at an AvTAB of $9.76. Careful, though, these stats encompass all race fields, all going, all distances etc etc Never mind, CC ...... ran 3rd at TAB $9.40/$2.10. Interesting to note that examining 8 - 10 field, $9 - $10 TAB the WSR holds at +/- 8.25% up to 9yr olds then it drops off very fast to around 3.25% But ..... these are just interesting numbers, nothing to do with the running of a horse-race ? On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 06:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. > > > 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible > lays. > > Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB > provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. > > I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast > discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 > winners. > > As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my > programming! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Hi Len > > http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 > /83/#zoom=z > > I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. > It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. > The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. > These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any > place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, > nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. > > I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. > > I missed the race tonight - gardening. > > Cheers > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Tony, > > Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my > TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and > including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for > 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, > Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy > to see why I give them a big negative. > > LBL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Crafty Cruiser > Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been > with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. > He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey > Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. > Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the > tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to > the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. > The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains > fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well > mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were > stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special > reasons for it to run on. > I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension > now > each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any > way. > The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. > The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots > of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written > up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for > anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money > for it. > For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here > if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the > rams. > Cheers > Tony > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robbie at robwaterhouse.com Sat Nov 10 09:23:40 2018 From: robbie at robwaterhouse.com (Rob Waterhouse) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:23:40 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <01d201d4787a$de467650$9ad362f0$@robwaterhouse.com> Great you are alive and well! Rob W From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 9:15 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser CRAFTY CRUISER My wee d/b (+/- 15 yrs) shows 1877 11 YO's for 67 wins (WSR 3.57% POT -65.18%) at an AvTAB of $9.76. Careful, though, these stats encompass all race fields, all going, all distances etc etc Never mind, CC ...... ran 3rd at TAB $9.40/$2.10. Interesting to note that examining 8 - 10 field, $9 - $10 TAB the WSR holds at +/- 8.25% up to 9yr olds then it drops off very fast to around 3.25% But ..... these are just interesting numbers, nothing to do with the running of a horse-race ? On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 06:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at buckland.id.au Sat Nov 10 10:11:49 2018 From: phil at buckland.id.au (Phil Buckland) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:11:49 +1000 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <003601d47881$989bd210$c9d37630$@buckland.id.au> Good to see that you are still active Roger Cheers Phil Buckland From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 8:15 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser CRAFTY CRUISER My wee d/b (+/- 15 yrs) shows 1877 11 YO's for 67 wins (WSR 3.57% POT -65.18%) at an AvTAB of $9.76. Careful, though, these stats encompass all race fields, all going, all distances etc etc Never mind, CC ...... ran 3rd at TAB $9.40/$2.10. Interesting to note that examining 8 - 10 field, $9 - $10 TAB the WSR holds at +/- 8.25% up to 9yr olds then it drops off very fast to around 3.25% But ..... these are just interesting numbers, nothing to do with the running of a horse-race ? On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 06:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Sat Nov 10 14:05:54 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:05:54 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Message-ID: <000701d478a2$4bba90a0$e32fb1e0$@bigpond.com> Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 11 09:01:14 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:01:14 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000701d478a2$4bba90a0$e32fb1e0$@bigpond.com> References: <000701d478a2$4bba90a0$e32fb1e0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; not A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a great-grannie-to be. -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From seanmac4321 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 09:04:25 2018 From: seanmac4321 at gmail.com (sean mclaren) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 08:04:25 +1000 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> References: <000701d478a2$4bba90a0$e32fb1e0$@bigpond.com> <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Where's the like button ? They breed 'em tough down Gawler? way. On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 08:01 L.B.Loveday, wrote: > Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister > still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does > compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; > not > A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a > great-grannie-to be. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser > > Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today > (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). > There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is > priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle > (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by > the > very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. > > Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign > in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! > > So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, > there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if > you review their last four starts. > > Cheers > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. > > > 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible > lays. > > Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB > provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. > > I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast > discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 > winners. > > As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my > programming! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Hi Len > > http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 > /83/#zoom=z > > I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. > It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. > The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. > These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any > place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, > nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. > > I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. > > I missed the race tonight - gardening. > > Cheers > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Tony, > > Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my > TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and > including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for > 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, > Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy > to see why I give them a big negative. > > LBL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Crafty Cruiser > Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been > with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. > He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey > Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. > Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the > tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to > the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. > The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains > fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well > mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were > stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special > reasons for it to run on. > I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension > now > each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any > way. > The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. > The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots > of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written > up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for > anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money > for it. > For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here > if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the > rams. > Cheers > Tony > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Sun Nov 11 12:33:59 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 09:33:59 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser - highlights Message-ID: <000601d4795e$9f626720$de273560$@bigpond.com> Len - in my sphere of operations yesterday (Flemington) I encountered one aged runner worthy of consideration (off my rubbery maths) and it was Libran, Race 5 QE Stakes and it ran third. I had it third in a trifecta but not the required runners for the other positions. I had Libran and Red Alto in a quinella (for 200%) and those reversed in an exacta (for a $2 outlay) showing $46.40Q/69.90Ex/81.90Ex. I got nothing, not a thing, out of the race, and my desperate combinations failed to score. I blame Sully entirely. >From observation the trifecta dividends are seemingly skinny/skinnier and often a quinella dividend pays more than half an exacta prize, hence the 200% outlay, and mathematically it may be easier to score also (although never a given). Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2018 6:01 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; not A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a great-grannie-to be. -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From kozza1950 at bigpond.com Sun Nov 11 19:08:51 2018 From: kozza1950 at bigpond.com (Roman) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:08:51 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <01d201d4787a$de467650$9ad362f0$@robwaterhouse.com> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> <01d201d4787a$de467650$9ad362f0$@robwaterhouse.com> Message-ID: <002801d47995$c8a8ca20$59fa5e60$@bigpond.com> Hi Ausracers, Looks like a few of the old regulars are still on the site. I love horses like Crafty Cruiser ? they might be battle weary but gee they have a go. CC is just a few 1000 of winning $1 million. What a horse. Roman From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of Rob Waterhouse Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 9:24 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Great you are alive and well! Rob W From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 9:15 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser CRAFTY CRUISER My wee d/b (+/- 15 yrs) shows 1877 11 YO's for 67 wins (WSR 3.57% POT -65.18%) at an AvTAB of $9.76. Careful, though, these stats encompass all race fields, all going, all distances etc etc Never mind, CC ...... ran 3rd at TAB $9.40/$2.10. Interesting to note that examining 8 - 10 field, $9 - $10 TAB the WSR holds at +/- 8.25% up to 9yr olds then it drops off very fast to around 3.25% But ..... these are just interesting numbers, nothing to do with the running of a horse-race ? On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 06:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seanmac4321 at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 22:45:06 2018 From: seanmac4321 at gmail.com (sean mclaren) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:45:06 +1000 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <002801d47995$c8a8ca20$59fa5e60$@bigpond.com> References: <000001d47803$d5af2f90$810d8eb0$@bigpond.com> <000701d47814$5dd646f0$1982d4d0$@ozemail.com.au> <000501d47821$abebacb0$03c30610$@bigpond.com> <002101d47863$99e31ac0$cda95040$@ozemail.com.au> <01d201d4787a$de467650$9ad362f0$@robwaterhouse.com> <002801d47995$c8a8ca20$59fa5e60$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: Roman who? An unregular? On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 18:09 Roman, wrote: > Hi Ausracers, > > Looks like a few of the old regulars are still on the site. > > > > I love horses like Crafty Cruiser ? they might be battle weary but gee > they have a go. CC is just a few 1000 of winning $1 million. What a horse. > > > > Roman > > > > *From:* Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob > Waterhouse > *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2018 9:24 AM > *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > > > Great you are alive and well! > > > > Rob W > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 November 2018 9:15 AM > *To:* racing at ausrace.com > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > > > CRAFTY CRUISER > > > > My wee d/b (+/- 15 yrs) shows 1877 11 YO's for 67 wins (WSR 3.57% POT > -65.18%) > > at an AvTAB of $9.76. Careful, though, these stats encompass all race > fields, all going, > > all distances etc etc > > Never mind, CC ...... ran 3rd at TAB $9.40/$2.10. > > > > Interesting to note that examining 8 - 10 field, $9 - $10 TAB the WSR > holds at +/- 8.25% > > up to 9yr olds then it drops off very fast to around 3.25% > > > > But ..... these are just interesting numbers, nothing to do with the > running of a horse-race ? > > > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 06:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > > Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. > > > 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible > lays. > > Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB > provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. > > I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast > discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 > winners. > > As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my > programming! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Hi Len > > http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 > /83/#zoom=z > I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. > It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. > The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. > These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any > place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, > nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. > > I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. > > I missed the race tonight - gardening. > > Cheers > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Tony, > > Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my > TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and > including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for > 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, > Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy > to see why I give them a big negative. > > LBL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser > > Crafty Cruiser > Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been > with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. > He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey > Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. > Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the > tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to > the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. > The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains > fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well > mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were > stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special > reasons for it to run on. > I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension > now > each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any > way. > The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. > The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots > of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written > up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for > anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money > for it. > For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here > if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the > rams. > Cheers > Tony > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nick.aubrey at twonix.com Thu Nov 15 15:53:00 2018 From: nick.aubrey at twonix.com (nick.aubrey) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:53:00 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Another 11 yo still running well. I predict it will lead and if can get cheap sectionals could lead all the way. Massive odds at 71 and 16 the place but did win 2 years ago as a 9 yo at 100/1AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE? ? 11 Armona 11yo g (Racha_Cuneen) Thu 15-Nov-18 (ADST) 17:00 Seymour R8 at 07:37 AM odds 71 ... #GoodBetterBetANSent on the go with Vodafone -------- Original message --------From: "L.B.Loveday" Date: 11/11/18 9:01 am (GMT+10:00) To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sisterstill plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she doescompete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; notA grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for agreat-grannie-to be.-----Original Message-----From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony MoffatSent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PMTo: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty CruiserLen - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today(10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now).There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo ispriced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle(pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by thevery horse name orientated Colt Prosser.Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a signin the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas!So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation,there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well ifyou review their last four starts.CheersTony-----Original Message-----From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.LovedaySent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AMTo: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty CruiserLast year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incrediblelays.Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRBprovide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day.I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vastdiscrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60winners.As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and myprogramming! -----Original Message-----From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony MoffatSent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PMTo: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty CruiserHi Lenhttp://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017/83/#zoom=zI got my data here - capped at 2017 season though.It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races.The year before there were more runners for 3 successes.These? are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or anyplace but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around,nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know.I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged.I missed the race tonight - gardening.CheersTony-----Original Message-----From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.LovedaySent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PMTo: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty CruiserTony,Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to myTRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since andincluding 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race,Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easyto see why I give them a big negative.LBL-----Original Message-----From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony MoffatSent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PMTo: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty CruiserCrafty CruiserCranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has beenwith us at the races for years - essentially it has been.He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by CoreyParish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither thetipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him tothe fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings.The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remainsfit, and healthy it? seems, and always seems keen and alert and wellmannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they werestopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were specialreasons for it to run on.I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension noweach time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel anyway.The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8.The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lotsof touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him writtenup(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, foranything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some moneyfor it.For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock hereif needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, therams.CheersTony---This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com_______________________________________________Racing mailing listRacing at ausrace.comhttp://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikemcbain at tpg.com.au Thu Nov 15 16:27:15 2018 From: mikemcbain at tpg.com.au (mikemcbain at tpg.com.au) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:27:15 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <201811150453.wAF4rsST018614@mx14.tpg.com.au> References: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> <201811150453.wAF4rsST018614@mx14.tpg.com.au> Message-ID: <000001d47ca3$e02dfa10$a089ee30$@tpg.com.au> Nick & Ausracers Also entered for a BM58 1000m race at Tatura next Tuesday? My Ratings for todays race have them as 1-2-10-3 Mike From: Racing On Behalf Of nick.aubrey Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2018 15:53 To: AusRace Racing Discussion List Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser Another 11 yo still running well. I predict it will lead and if can get cheap sectionals could lead all the way. Massive odds at 71 and 16 the place but did win 2 years ago as a 9 yo at 100/1 AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE ? 11 Armona 11yo g (Racha_Cuneen) Thu 15-Nov-18 (ADST) 17:00 Seymour R8 at 07:37 AM odds 71 ... #GoodBetterBet AN Sent on the go with Vodafone -------- Original message -------- From: "L.B.Loveday" > Date: 11/11/18 9:01 am (GMT+10:00) To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; not A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a great-grannie-to be. -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Thu Nov 15 17:12:47 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:12:47 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <5B7EB8991C665694@extmail.bigpond.com> (added by postmaster@extmail.bigpond.com) References: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> <5B7EB8991C665694@extmail.bigpond.com> (added by postmaster@extmail.bigpond.com) Message-ID: <001701d47caa$3bb4b490$b31e1db0$@bigpond.com> Nick ? thanks Another ?oldie? is Landale running in Beaudesrt R7 and tipped to win It last ran on Saturday in the Tabulam Cup ? Tabulam ?between the surf and Texas! This is a competitive racehorse with scores of 15.82m/s, 16.64m/s, 16.72m/s against a class/distance score of 16.5 m/s And ok, I haven?t scored the other runners but typically they score less than 16.5 ? we?ll watch and see what it does. I?m not tipping it, just including it in the discussion. My choices would be 5(Landale), 10,11,3. Cheers Tony From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of nick.aubrey Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 12:53 PM To: AusRace Racing Discussion List Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser Another 11 yo still running well. I predict it will lead and if can get cheap sectionals could lead all the way. Massive odds at 71 and 16 the place but did win 2 years ago as a 9 yo at 100/1 AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE ? 11 Armona 11yo g (Racha_Cuneen) Thu 15-Nov-18 (ADST) 17:00 Seymour R8 at 07:37 AM odds 71 ... #GoodBetterBet AN Sent on the go with Vodafone -------- Original message -------- From: "L.B.Loveday" > Date: 11/11/18 9:01 am (GMT+10:00) To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; not A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a great-grannie-to be. -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Sun Nov 18 11:50:39 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 08:50:39 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues Message-ID: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> CC, and his stablemates, there are three or so in todays repeat, run in the distance event at Geelong today (1550 local) CC is again piloted by C Parish, who again has one ride this meeting, and that is CC. The jock often comes to the races just for this so there seems to be an affinity shown. In typical Tony steadfastness I have them as 4+7, 3+5, 1, 2 which I can reduce to 4,3,7,2 then evaporate to 4,3,7,5 then trying to add or deduct some elements I cannot shift 4 from the lead. So 4 it is, except it is aged 9 and my suggestion is to watch, and hope. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 18 13:24:50 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:24:50 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues In-Reply-To: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> References: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <001901d47ee5$e36c1970$aa444c50$@ozemail.com.au> Parish had a full book at Morphettville MC day, then rode at 3 Vic meetings, then 3 rides at Morp yesterday; gets around! I have 4/5 equal to beat the youngsters 2-3, who can't be too flash if I've got the oldies in front of them. -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2018 11:51 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues CC, and his stablemates, there are three or so in todays repeat, run in the distance event at Geelong today (1550 local) CC is again piloted by C Parish, who again has one ride this meeting, and that is CC. The jock often comes to the races just for this so there seems to be an affinity shown. In typical Tony steadfastness I have them as 4+7, 3+5, 1, 2 which I can reduce to 4,3,7,2 then evaporate to 4,3,7,5 then trying to add or deduct some elements I cannot shift 4 from the lead. So 4 it is, except it is aged 9 and my suggestion is to watch, and hope. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 18 15:05:30 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 15:05:30 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues In-Reply-To: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> References: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <002501d47ef3$f35e6730$da1b3590$@ozemail.com.au> Looks like the transporter broke down - all 3 scratched. -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2018 11:51 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues CC, and his stablemates, there are three or so in todays repeat, run in the distance event at Geelong today (1550 local) CC is again piloted by C Parish, who again has one ride this meeting, and that is CC. The jock often comes to the races just for this so there seems to be an affinity shown. In typical Tony steadfastness I have them as 4+7, 3+5, 1, 2 which I can reduce to 4,3,7,2 then evaporate to 4,3,7,5 then trying to add or deduct some elements I cannot shift 4 from the lead. So 4 it is, except it is aged 9 and my suggestion is to watch, and hope. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From tonymoffat at bigpond.com Mon Nov 19 02:36:53 2018 From: tonymoffat at bigpond.com (Tony Moffat) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 23:36:53 +0800 Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues In-Reply-To: <002501d47ef3$f35e6730$da1b3590$@ozemail.com.au> References: <000f01d47ed8$bab448c0$301cda40$@bigpond.com> <002501d47ef3$f35e6730$da1b3590$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000801d47f54$88bdaf60$9a390e20$@bigpond.com> Len - thanks CC is entered again at Sandown on Wednesday and in the ballot so will be excluded (at entry position 33 or so you would expect that) Trainer Stanaway has stated he will retire when CC does - which is noble. The result shows I shouldn't tip, like ever. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues Looks like the transporter broke down - all 3 scratched. -----Original Message----- From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2018 11:51 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser - the waltz continues CC, and his stablemates, there are three or so in todays repeat, run in the distance event at Geelong today (1550 local) CC is again piloted by C Parish, who again has one ride this meeting, and that is CC. The jock often comes to the races just for this so there seems to be an affinity shown. In typical Tony steadfastness I have them as 4+7, 3+5, 1, 2 which I can reduce to 4,3,7,2 then evaporate to 4,3,7,5 then trying to add or deduct some elements I cannot shift 4 from the lead. So 4 it is, except it is aged 9 and my suggestion is to watch, and hope. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 25 13:54:24 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 13:54:24 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser Message-ID: <002501d4846a$2e4dafb0$8ae90f10$@ozemail.com.au> Nick, I just saw this looking at the Archives - did not make it to me directly. I also had Armona to lead and hang on; "good" to see someone else got it as wrong as I did. I had the leader THE CONSIGLIERE (going from TRB results, I did not watch or listen), way back in the running and running nowhere - at least I got the latter part right; it ran last. LBL Another 11 yo still running well. I predict it will lead and if can get cheap sectionals could lead all the way. Massive odds at 71 and 16 the place but did win 2 years ago as a 9 yo at 100/1AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE . 11 Armona 11yo g (Racha_Cuneen) Thu 15-Nov-18 (ADST) 17:00 Seymour R8 at 07:37 AM odds 71 ... #GoodBetterBetANSent on the go with Vodafone -------- Original message --------From: "L.B.Loveday" Date: 11/11/18 9:01 am (GMT+10:00) To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 25 14:07:49 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 14:07:49 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser In-Reply-To: <001701d47caa$3bb4b490$b31e1db0$@bigpond.com> References: <000301d47940$e8055b40$b81011c0$@ozemail.com.au> <5B7EB8991C665694@extmail.bigpond.com> (added by postmaster@extmail.bigpond.com) <001701d47caa$3bb4b490$b31e1db0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <002601d4846c$0dbe80b0$293b8210$@ozemail.com.au> At least I did better in rating leaders in Beaudesert 7 - I had them 12, 5, 4, and that's the way it panned out; not that that's much good as they pay on the post, not the jump, and I had that 2, 5, 3. From: Racing On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2018 5:13 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser Nick ? thanks Another ?oldie? is Landale running in Beaudesrt R7 and tipped to win It last ran on Saturday in the Tabulam Cup ? Tabulam ?between the surf and Texas! This is a competitive racehorse with scores of 15.82m/s, 16.64m/s, 16.72m/s against a class/distance score of 16.5 m/s And ok, I haven?t scored the other runners but typically they score less than 16.5 ? we?ll watch and see what it does. I?m not tipping it, just including it in the discussion. My choices would be 5(Landale), 10,11,3. Cheers Tony From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of nick.aubrey Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 12:53 PM To: AusRace Racing Discussion List > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runner ARMONA - was Crafty Cruiser Another 11 yo still running well. I predict it will lead and if can get cheap sectionals could lead all the way. Massive odds at 71 and 16 the place but did win 2 years ago as a 9 yo at 100/1 AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE ? 11 Armona 11yo g (Racha_Cuneen) Thu 15-Nov-18 (ADST) 17:00 Seymour R8 at 07:37 AM odds 71 ... #GoodBetterBet AN Sent on the go with Vodafone -------- Original message -------- From: "L.B.Loveday" > Date: 11/11/18 9:01 am (GMT+10:00) To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Tony, maybe like so many humans, horses are aging better. My 70 yo sister still plays basketball 3 nights a week - not Masters, although she does compete in their games, but in open competition, with teenagers and 20s; not A grade any more, but even D grade teenagers are tough competition for a great-grannie-to be. -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2018 2:06 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Aged runners - was Crafty Cruiser Len - there are a raft of older runners (63) accepted for racing today (10/11) including a 12 year old at Geelong(scr. now). There is a competitive race at Moranbah (yes, there) were the 10 yo is priced at $2.20 A nine year old Alpine Dragon is racing at Newcastle (pronounced Noo-cassel by the girl on the internet radio) and trained by the very horse name orientated Colt Prosser. Tabulam has racing today with several 'oldies' contesting. There is a sign in the town that announces it is half way between the surf and Texas! So with a count of 63 in a days racing seems to confirm your observation, there is a lot of the aged brigade still running, and running quite well if you review their last four starts. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 3:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Last year, 2017, there were 196 11yo runs, for 3 wins. 1296 runners for 5 wins sounds very wrong - that would make them incredible lays. Risa must ignore many races for their calculations that TRB includes - TRB provide results of races big and small - 41 meetings on MC day. I make it 9851 runners 8yo or older for 679 winners in 2017, a vast discrepancy from 1296/5. At Mainland Metro alone I make it 1270 for 60 winners. As always, statistics are only as accurate as my data bases and my programming! -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 10:45 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Hi Len http://publishingservices.risa.com.au/otherpublications/Factbook%202016-2017 /83/#zoom=z I got my data here - capped at 2017 season though. It seems there were 1296 runners aged 8yo+ and they won 5 races. The year before there were more runners for 3 successes. These are wins. Sometimes, presumably , they run, not for first, or any place but for the runner prize which can be $2400 just for going around, nice work if you can get it, and that $2.4K buys a whack of hay, I know. I reckon we could be justified in ignoring them somewhat, the aged. I missed the race tonight - gardening. Cheers Tony -----Original Message----- From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 6:10 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Tony, Quite a year for 11yos - 48 unique 11yos have run according to my TRB-supplied database, being the most in any calendar year since and including 1995 and there are weeks to go. They have contested 255 races for 15 wins (after CC today, 256; there was another 11yo in the same race, Knucklemanna, but it was scratched), returning $105 at $1 SP - pretty easy to see why I give them a big negative. LBL -----Original Message----- From: Racing > On Behalf Of Tony Moffat Sent: Friday, 9 November 2018 7:12 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] Crafty Cruiser Crafty Cruiser Cranbourne Race 4 tonight 2000 hours local It seems this greybeard has been with us at the races for years - essentially it has been. He runs tonight for his 141 start and is 11 years old and ridden by Corey Parish, him with that flamboyant whipping action of his. Sadly CC does not seem to figure in any sums for the race, neither the tipsters nor the form, weight, money schemes or workouts can promote him to the fore, not even fourth or fifth or sixth in some rankings. The old boy has average earnt $5000 each time he has fronted and remains fit, and healthy it seems, and always seems keen and alert and well mannered. He must have a licence to race because I thought they were stopping them at 9 years old, the comfort clause, unless there were special reasons for it to run on. I think 141 starts is a good point to stop now. There is an apprehension now each time he goes round, did he get in okay, well that's what I feel any way. The form seems to be with 6,3,4, and 8. The before and now money choices might be 5,6,3, and two and there are lots of touches for him on the corporate sites, three I use have him written up(flucs) 44 times - I'm not sure that is an accurate indicator, for anything actually, except for the clerk who is trying to entice some money for it. For what it's worth I hope he wins, then retires - there is a paddock here if needs be, he can share with the Bonnar brothers, Scott and Victa, the rams. Cheers Tony --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com Virus-free. www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Sun Nov 25 14:46:23 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 14:46:23 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Message-ID: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same. I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"... Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RaceStats at hotmail.com Sun Nov 25 15:39:01 2018 From: RaceStats at hotmail.com (Race Stats) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 04:39:01 +0000 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Len, I respectfully disagree, what's new :) That definition of Senile is the very ancient definition and does not encompass what it means today. I know 50 year olds and younger who are senile. "Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has." My mother is nearly 92 and sharper than she ever was, her mental acumen is in fact better than when she was younger, because she is also a lot wiser. Yes, her physical ability has declined, but she needs no aids to help her walk etc. "Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys." Breaking skin or resulting in a bruise is not the issue with hitting horses, it's the sting to try and make them go faster when they've tried their hearts out already. Horses run from pain despite further injury to themselves internally. They are more sensitive to pain and they have a very high flight response, much higher than any human. Horses do not in most areas have thicker hides, people think they do because of their coats (even when trimmed). As I said before, a horse can feel a fly on it's rear, and the flank of a horse which generally gets hit is very sensitive. I am in no way an expert, but I'm a 5th generation horseman, have studied horses, watched them for hours, trained them, broken them in, saved many ex racehorses from slaughter, from firsthand experience, I do know that a horse feels the smallest of touches to it's "hide". I can just barely touch a horse I've trained on the flank and it will move to the opposite direction crossing it's hind legs. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same... I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"..... Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Thu Nov 29 10:37:21 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 10:37:21 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same. I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"... Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From biggsroger83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 11:04:47 2018 From: biggsroger83 at gmail.com (Roger Biggs) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 11:04:47 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). > > > > I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but > nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, > including horses. > > > > I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to > being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few > whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, > especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a > number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, > nor I believe, any person with certainty. > > > > I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would > prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - > "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the > mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would > try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down > and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to > conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if > horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. > > > > Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than > horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have > their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are > insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog > racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse > racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to > the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. > > > > Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, > yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings > relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in > Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill > - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the > suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a > horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; > compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a > week or more to die of dehydration. > > > > I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the > parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit > barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail > awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first > legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap > and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *L.B.Loveday > *Sent:* Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM > *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > *Subject:* [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's > been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you > have formed the opinion "*Didn't think so*" is beyond my comprehension > maybe you know him personally. > > > > From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: > > > > Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age > > > > My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: > Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which > it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical > ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. > > > > I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he > has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and > demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example > - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip > replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He > accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger > people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that > if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for > years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would > always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - > repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes > which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke > had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young > first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything > other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because > of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. > > > > Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted > each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, > but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys > were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course > have far thicker hides than the boys. > > > > > > > > Len, > > Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? > > Didn't think so. > > He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. > > I totally agree. > > When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. > > A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. > > Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. > > If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). > > Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. > > Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. > > Mostly the damage is irreparable. > > Lindsay > > > > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > > Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM > > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Thu Nov 29 11:27:53 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 11:27:53 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <001701d4877a$5fc409f0$1f4c1dd0$@ozemail.com.au> Then show the way and write something on "Horse Racing"! From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing > On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Thu Nov 29 11:50:52 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 11:50:52 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing > On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From biggsroger83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 12:14:18 2018 From: biggsroger83 at gmail.com (Roger Biggs) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 12:14:18 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Dear Mr Loveday, Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. (AKA Adelaide). Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. Kind regards. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday wrote: > "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. > > > > I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, > and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would > think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a > few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with > slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the > crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs > *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM > *To:* racing at ausrace.com > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Where is this rather strange thread going??? > > > > I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I > wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute > fortune. > > > > but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would > prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to > spend some time with females who've been down this road. > > > > Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited > effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the > production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging > the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that > he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing > the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) > > > > Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > > General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). > > > > I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but > nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, > including horses. > > > > I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to > being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few > whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, > especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a > number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, > nor I believe, any person with certainty. > > > > I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would > prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - > "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the > mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would > try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down > and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to > conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if > horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. > > > > Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than > horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have > their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are > insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog > racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse > racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to > the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. > > > > Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, > yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings > relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in > Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill > - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the > suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a > horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; > compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a > week or more to die of dehydration. > > > > I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the > parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit > barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail > awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first > legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap > and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *L.B.Loveday > *Sent:* Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM > *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > *Subject:* [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's > been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you > have formed the opinion "*Didn't think so*" is beyond my comprehension > maybe you know him personally. > > > > From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: > > > > Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age > > > > My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: > Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which > it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical > ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. > > > > I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he > has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and > demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example > - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip > replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He > accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger > people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that > if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for > years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would > always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - > repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes > which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke > had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young > first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything > other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because > of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. > > > > Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted > each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, > but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys > were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course > have far thicker hides than the boys. > > > > > > > > Len, > > Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? > > Didn't think so. > > He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. > > I totally agree. > > When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. > > A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. > > Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. > > If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). > > Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. > > Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. > > Mostly the damage is irreparable. > > Lindsay > > > > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > > Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM > > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikemcbain at tpg.com.au Thu Nov 29 13:05:11 2018 From: mikemcbain at tpg.com.au (mikemcbain at tpg.com.au) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 13:05:11 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000001d48787$f60eb240$e22c16c0$@tpg.com.au> Roger, Len, Lindsay & All Perhaps I am the strange one but I consider a discussion on the use of the whip and its effect on horses and Jockeys and Punters as an important part of horse racing and quite appropriate in this forum. I also enjoy Len?s thoughts on all matters racing and punting as I do Lindsay?s expertise on horses and handling and as I do most of Roger?s books on the subject. What I do not like is when Ausracers revert to personal slanging matches on any forum especially this long standing one. We are all a little guilty of lack of contributions on racing but Len less so than the rest of us. Having got that off my chest I do think T?was One Morning has a great chance in Race 1 at Pakenham today following an good recent Barrier Trial. Mike. From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Thu Nov 29 13:06:16 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 13:06:16 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <000501d48788$1e74f370$5b5eda50$@ozemail.com.au> Hopefully it was clear to everyone but you that by "Then show the way and write something on "Horse Racing"", I meant for Ausrace, where you posted the plea "Can we please go back to 'Horse Racing'", and has nothing to do with books you have written for profit. I have never, despite requests, written anything for profit nor provided ratings for profit, but have over many years freely (that's free, not for payment ) provided statistics on horse racing on the Ausrace site and to people "off-list" - more statistics I think than anyone else over the years on Ausrace. But I do not denigrate those who do - to each his own - as you seemingly do me for not having written books, but to proffer having written books for profit as self-praise while contributing all-but nothing to Ausrace is ? adequate words temporarily fail me. I traced back to 2011 when someone asked me off-list about what I meant by Impact Values and in reply to my explanation, wrote: "Ok yes, I see, so the same meaning as per the work from Roger Biggs". and I responded: "Never read Biggs, not even sure I'd heard of him - had to Google it. Maybe he took IV from me? I've used it "forever", and actually thought I may have invented the term. But I checked, and maybe I got the term from Quirin as I read his book several times back in the early 80s. According to Quirin, "An IV of 1.00 means that horses with a specific characteristic have won no more and no less than their fair share of the races. An IV of 2.00 meant these horses won twice as much as expected; an IV of .50 meant they won half as much as expected". Which may be a clearer explanation than the one I gave you" From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 12:14 PM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Dear Mr Loveday, Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. (AKA Adelaide). Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. Kind regards. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday > wrote: "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. From: Racing < racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing < racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' < racing at ausrace.com> Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RaceStats at hotmail.com Thu Nov 29 13:43:35 2018 From: RaceStats at hotmail.com (Race Stats) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 02:43:35 +0000 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Len, The topic was the use of whips (crops). What does gelding a horse have to do with the use of whips? It's an entirely different topic. Then we move on to breeding being compared to a woman being raped, Len that's out of order completely. Do you know any women who've been raped, the mental damage far exceeds the physical and lasts a lifetime. In my opinion, it's very poor taste the comparison. As an aside mares aren't held down, they are mated when in season and winking, meaning they are ready to breed, they will even wink at geldings. They are taken to the breeding barn and a pony is used to get the mare ready for the stallion. The mare is not raped. I have no comment on the rest, it has no relevance. Lindsay. From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 10:37 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same... I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"..... Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 14:50:28 2018 From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 14:50:28 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: It has always surprised me that all the romantic/rapey novels are invariably written by women. All the Mills & Boons stuff but also the more high-browish rubbish. Not sure what we should make of it all. As for the whip, why don't we defer to those in the industry - and all to a man/woman - insist that it is needed on two fronts; safety and to get them putting in. We all love horse but giving in to the Leftard push on anything always ends with them claiming more and more. The totalitarians wouldn't hesitate to try and shut down horse racing; just look at what that prat Baird proposed doing with the greyhounds. I find it very annoying that media hacks are always crying "perception is what it's all about". It's a political push, usually by know-nothing bureaucrats and their stupid kiddy acolytes. On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 11:52 AM L.B.Loveday wrote: > "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. > > > > I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, > and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would > think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a > few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with > slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the > crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs > *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM > *To:* racing at ausrace.com > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Where is this rather strange thread going??? > > > > I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I > wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute > fortune. > > > > but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would > prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to > spend some time with females who've been down this road. > > > > Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited > effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the > production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging > the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that > he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing > the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) > > > > Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > > General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). > > > > I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but > nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, > including horses. > > > > I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to > being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few > whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, > especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a > number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, > nor I believe, any person with certainty. > > > > I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would > prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - > "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the > mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would > try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down > and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to > conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if > horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. > > > > Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than > horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have > their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are > insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog > racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse > racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to > the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. > > > > Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, > yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings > relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in > Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill > - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the > suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a > horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; > compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a > week or more to die of dehydration. > > > > I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the > parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit > barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail > awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first > legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap > and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *L.B.Loveday > *Sent:* Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM > *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > *Subject:* [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's > been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you > have formed the opinion "*Didn't think so*" is beyond my comprehension > maybe you know him personally. > > > > From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: > > > > Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age > > > > My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: > Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which > it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical > ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. > > > > I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he > has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and > demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example > - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip > replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He > accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger > people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that > if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for > years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would > always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - > repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes > which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke > had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young > first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything > other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because > of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. > > > > Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted > each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, > but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys > were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course > have far thicker hides than the boys. > > > > > > > > Len, > > Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? > > Didn't think so. > > He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. > > I totally agree. > > When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. > > A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. > > Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. > > If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). > > Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. > > Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. > > Mostly the damage is irreparable. > > Lindsay > > > > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > > Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM > > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikemcbain at tpg.com.au Thu Nov 29 18:10:04 2018 From: mikemcbain at tpg.com.au (mikemcbain at tpg.com.au) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 18:10:04 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] Pak R1 Result Message-ID: <000401d487b2$8ded3ad0$a9c7b070$@tpg.com.au> Devils Rain sounds a much more appropriate winner than my selection. Mike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robbie at robwaterhouse.com Fri Nov 30 02:11:58 2018 From: robbie at robwaterhouse.com (Rob Waterhouse) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 10:11:58 -0500 Subject: [AusRace] peace Message-ID: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> Dear Len and Roger, Please both continue to contribute. Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his living on the punt ? a man to be respected. Interestingly, I was a guest at a small lunch with several of the world?s most successful punters. I posed a question: there are said to be 2,000,000 Australians who have had a betting account with a corporate, how many earn a living (say $100k) punting. The answer ranged from 10 to 50 ? a small percentage. Good on Len. Warm regards, Rob W From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2018 8:14 PM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Dear Mr Loveday, Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. (AKA Adelaide). Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. Kind regards. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday > wrote: "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. From: Racing > On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing > On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 30 11:11:57 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:11:57 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <001701d48841$50452eb0$f0cf8c10$@ozemail.com.au> Mike, Of course discussion of the use of the crop is appropriate, and in these times arguments need to be readied - make no mistake that the aim of the self-proclaimed elite is to ban not just the crop, but racing (we saw the forerunner in the NSW Greyhound farce), along with making all into toy-soldier types, marching in step to their command - what to eat, what to say, what to believe?? Personal abuse has never bothered me, nor does resorting to puerile comments about being from Adelaide; I just find them pathetic. ZR is the issue of Croatian immigrants who lived in Tasmania and has not written any books - why ever would he? - so let's have incest comments? I'm told the great Alan Rowland wrote a book, but have not seen it (nor looked), and apart from him there is Scott that I know of from contemporary(ish) punters. The racing books I have enjoyed have been those by the likes of George E Smith, through to Sam Lewin to Bill Waterhouse, books that also tell a story of the man's life - stats I can, and do, produce by the ream. I regularly dispose of a box containing 2,500 pages (well that?s how many the boxes contain when I buy a carton of new paper), and the Missus groans about my office table groaning under stacks of daily analyses - they collect dust and insect stools apparently - and have so often shown that published stats are wrong, albeit often slightly (and 5% margin is, imo, what a punter can reasonably obtain, so accuracy is paramount), that I never believe them until I test. Scott's books I bought and read thoroughly and they were a help, but perversely in helping me realise what not to do. They were selling rating sheets from memory (certainly many people were using them, whether purchased or hand-readied), people were filling them in with similar information, and coming to similar conclusions, and I realised that I had to be unique. Remember when Dominic Beirne had indicators on Sky that a tip was available for purchase? Too many punters killed the price after a while. I've been buying The Rating Bureau's data for 30 years - service and data great - to determine my bets via programs I have written myself, and . I prefer George E Smith's approach to staking to Scott's "Show me the man who can class horses correctly and I will show you the man who can win all the money he wants, and he only needs a dollar to start with", which he says was one of the greatest truths ever uttered about horseracing, and Sean Bartholemew's "Get as much money on as you can at the best odds you can". Of course MBL has severely restricted staking plans for many punters anyway, if betting off-course. Not to mention some corporates' failure to adhere to the law, and the authorities' refusal to enforce it. Eg, I was cut back to $73.73 @ 5.10 the place at 10:25am today; even BetZero would set to win $404; for all their faults, they do strictly obey the law. Some mock Scott for allegedly ending up broke; I'd rather his life than theirs; being successful at winning money does not mean one is, or should be, successful at accumulating money, indeed many don't have any desire to accumulate and leave it behind! I was going to do a Scotty (as your post did not come through to me, I accessed it from the archives far too late to comment pre-race), and say I'd have set you right about One Morning - I had it rated no-where - but thought I'd better do a manual check first. First starter so my program has all-but no data to go by (I know you went by a barrier trial, but I don't consider them as "anything goes"). Then I looked at Devil's Rain and saw it was a first-starter also, as was #10, but at 60/1. I leave first starters alone. Period. LBL, Roger, Len, Lindsay & All Perhaps I am the strange one but I consider a discussion on the use of the whip and its effect on horses and Jockeys and Punters as an important part of horse racing and quite appropriate in this forum. I also enjoy Len?s thoughts on all matters racing and punting as I do Lindsay?s expertise on horses and handling and as I do most of Roger?s books on the subject. What I do not like is when Ausracers revert to personal slanging matches on any forum especially this long standing one. We are all a little guilty of lack of contributions on racing but Len less so than the rest of us. Having got that off my chest I do think T?was One Morning has a great chance in Race 1 at Pakenham today following an good recent Barrier Trial. Mike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seanmac4321 at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 11:20:08 2018 From: seanmac4321 at gmail.com (sean mclaren) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 10:20:08 +1000 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: Roger can you enlighten me why the self indulgent intrusion?. My emotional intelligence escapes me from time to time, too. Getting old ain't no excuse. And should I say, I do recall your curried porridge references, back in your speed ratings days. Oops only Mike McBain or perhaps Roman would remember those heady days. My ol man had a saying " old dogs for a rough road, puppy dogs walk on the footpath". In closing Roger, this is familiar territory for you, loosen up. Len asked you to talk horse racing. Here, on this forum. I read most of your books. You have plenty of material. I recall the late E J Minnis saying your published speed ratings were very good. Why not explain why you went away from speed? Keep smiling everyone. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 11:15 Roger Biggs, wrote: > Dear Mr Loveday, > > Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. > As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. > > Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the > statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any > product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the > home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. > (AKA Adelaide). > > Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well > known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. > > Kind regards. > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday wrote: > >> "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. >> >> >> >> I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, >> and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would >> think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a >> few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with >> slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the >> crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. >> >> >> >> *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs >> *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM >> *To:* racing at ausrace.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? >> >> >> >> Where is this rather strange thread going??? >> >> >> >> I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I >> wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute >> fortune. >> >> >> >> but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would >> prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to >> spend some time with females who've been down this road. >> >> >> >> Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited >> effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the >> production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging >> the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that >> he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing >> the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) >> >> >> >> Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". >> >> >> >> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday >> wrote: >> >> General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). >> >> >> >> I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but >> nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, >> including horses. >> >> >> >> I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop >> to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a >> few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, >> especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a >> number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, >> nor I believe, any person with certainty. >> >> >> >> I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would >> prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - >> "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the >> mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would >> try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down >> and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to >> conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if >> horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. >> >> >> >> Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than >> horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have >> their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are >> insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog >> racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse >> racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to >> the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. >> >> >> >> Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, >> yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings >> relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in >> Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill >> - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the >> suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a >> horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; >> compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a >> week or more to die of dehydration. >> >> >> >> I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the >> parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit >> barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail >> awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first >> legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap >> and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *L.B.Loveday >> *Sent:* Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM >> *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' >> *Subject:* [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? >> >> >> >> Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's >> been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you >> have formed the opinion "*Didn't think so*" is beyond my comprehension >> maybe you know him personally. >> >> >> >> From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: >> >> >> >> Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age >> >> >> >> My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: >> Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which >> it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical >> ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. >> >> >> >> I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he >> has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and >> demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example >> - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip >> replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He >> accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger >> people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that >> if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for >> years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would >> always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - >> repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes >> which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke >> had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young >> first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything >> other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because >> of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. >> >> >> >> Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted >> each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, >> but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys >> were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course >> have far thicker hides than the boys. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Len, >> >> Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? >> >> Didn't think so. >> >> He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. >> >> I totally agree. >> >> When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. >> >> A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. >> >> Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. >> >> If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). >> >> Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. >> >> Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. >> >> Mostly the damage is irreparable. >> >> Lindsay >> >> >> >> From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday >> >> Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM >> >> To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' >> >> Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? >> >> >> >> Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Racing mailing list >> Racing at ausrace.com >> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Racing mailing list >> Racing at ausrace.com >> http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com >> > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 30 12:37:12 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:37:12 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Message-ID: <002201d4884d$39814720$ac83d560$@ozemail.com.au> Nick, Like Mike's your post did not come through to me; I accessed it on Archives. I have no doubt that they would shut down horse racing if they can; first jumps, then crops, then ?.. That is their modus operandi - step by step with each successive step taking us to a stage that would never have been successful if introduced in one go. Abortion, smoking, food, disciplining children, Christmas (on background news I just heard Rudolf the Red-nosed Reindeer is to be banned), permissible speech, homosexual activities?.. And horse racing is firmly in their sights. The immoral and hypocritical recent turnover taxes on bookmakers is indicative of the contempt in which punters are held, as was the massive increase in TAB commission on most bets a few years ago. I have no positive hopes about the future of racing, nor pretty well anything else in Australian life. " romantic/rapey novels are invariably written by women" Not read any, but surely they don't also claim that women prefer being raped to getting a few slaps? The women I have spoken to reckon that rape is the worst kind of assault. LBL It has always surprised me that all the romantic/rapey novels are invariably written by women. All the Mills & Boons stuff but also the more high-browish rubbish. Not sure what we should make of it all. As for the whip, why don't we defer to those in the industry - and all to a man/woman - insist that it is needed on two fronts; safety and to get them putting in. We all love horse but giving in to the Leftard push on anything always ends with them claiming more and more. The totalitarians wouldn't hesitate to try and shut down horse racing; just look at what that prat Baird proposed doing with the greyhounds. I find it very annoying that media hacks are always crying "perception is what it's all about". It's a political push, usually by know-nothing bureaucrats and their stupid kiddy acolytes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 30 12:55:16 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:55:16 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] peace In-Reply-To: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> References: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> Message-ID: <002701d4884f$bf649160$3e2db420$@ozemail.com.au> Rob, I'm sure you know how much harder it's become - the halcyon days of Randwick are well gone, as your boiling frog article indicated. So while my mates are "enjoying" their taxpayer-funded superannuation pensions that I forwent by resigning and shifting to having no boss, no partners, no workmates, no subordinates and no customers, while I work on. But as my two best surviving mates say, if I'd been "sensible" and provided for the future like them, I'd not be me. If I make it to March (I have more dead friends than living) I've have clocked up 25 years as a loner, one out. Regards, LBL From: Racing On Behalf Of Rob Waterhouse Sent: Friday, 30 November 2018 2:12 AM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] peace Dear Len and Roger, Please both continue to contribute. Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his living on the punt ? a man to be respected. Interestingly, I was a guest at a small lunch with several of the world?s most successful punters. I posed a question: there are said to be 2,000,000 Australians who have had a betting account with a corporate, how many earn a living (say $100k) punting. The answer ranged from 10 to 50 ? a small percentage. Good on Len. Warm regards, Rob W From: Racing < racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2018 8:14 PM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Dear Mr Loveday, Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. (AKA Adelaide). Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. Kind regards. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday > wrote: "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. From: Racing < racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday > wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing < racing-bounces at ausrace.com> On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' < racing at ausrace.com> Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kozza1950 at bigpond.com Fri Nov 30 17:10:46 2018 From: kozza1950 at bigpond.com (Roman) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 17:10:46 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? In-Reply-To: References: <003001d48471$70ea9660$52bfc320$@ozemail.com.au> <000401d48773$50e76dc0$f2b64940$@ozemail.com.au> <000001d4877d$95d73dc0$c185b940$@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <004101d48873$6f0433f0$4d0c9bd0$@bigpond.com> I thought this was a racing forum for gentlemen which is why I have returned but alas in one case not so. If any of you want to read how pathetic some people are go to the punters.com.au site and have a read. Some of the saddest people on earth are on the site with several needing serious professional help. Let?s remain true punters. We all know the game is super tough to even break square but by crikey what a great ride it can be for just pure enjoyment. I am still loving playing around with target betting and have also started to seriously price every runner in the races I select to 100% since June 2. The results on only 250 odd races and over 3000 rated horses has been illuminating, to say the least. It takes time but has shown me where I am promising, after 50 years on the punt, and where I am not so flash in regards to a number of factors. I am off to the pub for a couple of pints, maybe even three. Good to see Len, Rob W, Mike and Sean to name a few are still out and about. Where?s that troublemaker Tony Acciano?? Has he been banned yet?? There was a pacer at Echuca the other night called Hally?s Miss Molly. It broke the track record, the margin 15m easily as a 9yo. That?s not all. It made Crafty Cruiser look like a child because it was start 283. Dan M call is priceless in the last 100m. I am thirsty! Roman Koz From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com] On Behalf Of sean mclaren Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 11:20 AM To: AusRace Racing Discussion List Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Roger can you enlighten me why the self indulgent intrusion?. My emotional intelligence escapes me from time to time, too. Getting old ain't no excuse. And should I say, I do recall your curried porridge references, back in your speed ratings days. Oops only Mike McBain or perhaps Roman would remember those heady days. My ol man had a saying " old dogs for a rough road, puppy dogs walk on the footpath". In closing Roger, this is familiar territory for you, loosen up. Len asked you to talk horse racing. Here, on this forum. I read most of your books. You have plenty of material. I recall the late E J Minnis saying your published speed ratings were very good. Why not explain why you went away from speed? Keep smiling everyone. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 11:15 Roger Biggs, wrote: Dear Mr Loveday, Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. (AKA Adelaide). Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. Kind regards. On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday wrote: "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. From: Racing On Behalf Of Roger Biggs Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM To: racing at ausrace.com Subject: Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Where is this rather strange thread going??? I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute fortune. but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to spend some time with females who've been down this road. Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, including horses. I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, nor I believe, any person with certainty. I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a week or more to die of dehydration. I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. From: Racing On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you have formed the opinion "Didn't think so" is beyond my comprehension maybe you know him personally. >From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course have far thicker hides than the boys. Len, Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? Didn't think so. He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. I totally agree. When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. Mostly the damage is irreparable. Lindsay From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com _______________________________________________ Racing mailing list Racing at ausrace.com http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 30 17:56:31 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 17:56:31 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] I doubt even Tony Moffat has come across these systems: Message-ID: <005a01d48879$d5ee1f80$81ca5e80$@ozemail.com.au> Came across Scott Williams' book "Can Punting Pay" while shuffling through books, "a result of almost two years full time academic research", which I bought maybe 40 years ago, and which I'm pretty sure I never read much of. Under the heading "Biocycles": "Patrick Evans, an expert in the fledging science of biodynamics has suggested that horses are susceptible to cyclical "off" days", in accordance with the number of days from their birth date. Sceptical? "He has surprised some hard headed gamblers in the UK by correctly predicting favourites that would not win because the race day was an "off" day for that horse". But there's more: Walter Gor Old ("Sepharial") wrote "The Silver Key" which discussed "the influence of the planets on horses, partly by their names (which are converted to numbers related to the planets and partly by the jockey's colours". There are 3 pages of tables detailing the nitty gritty of arriving at selections. And yet more: a table of "Recommended Bets (Based on Numerology)" with the only input required the number of runners. No wonder I never read much of it! LBL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From norsaintpublishing at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 18:59:19 2018 From: norsaintpublishing at gmail.com (norsaintpublishing at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 18:59:19 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] peace In-Reply-To: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> References: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> Message-ID: Rob W said "Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his living on the punt ? a man to be respected." *Now there's idea Len. Have you got a book in you? I know they say that most journalists have ..... and that's where it should stay, but a biography of life on the punt would be a winner. I'll put my order in now. * On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 2:12 AM Rob Waterhouse wrote: > Dear Len and Roger, > > > > Please both continue to contribute. > > > > Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his > living on the punt ? a man to be respected. > > > > Interestingly, I was a guest at a small lunch with several of the world?s > most successful punters. I posed a question: there are said to be 2,000,000 > Australians who have had a betting account with a corporate, how many earn > a living (say $100k) punting. The answer ranged from 10 to 50 ? a small > percentage. Good on Len. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Rob W > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs > *Sent:* Wednesday, 28 November 2018 8:14 PM > *To:* racing at ausrace.com > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Dear Mr Loveday, > > > > Thank you for your wonderfully intellectual response. > > As you say ... I really should write about horseracing. > > > > Actually I have. All 14 of my books are devoted to the > > statistics of 15 years of Australian racing. I have yet to see any > > product from you, but there again ... you do live in SA ... the > > home of Australia's largest above-ground cemetery. > > (AKA Adelaide). > > > > Mr Loveday .... your views and contributions are well > > known on a number of websites.I will not respond further. > > > > Kind regards. > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 11:52, L.B.Loveday wrote: > > "women would prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. > > > > I asked several women, who would know the likely choice of other women, > and they were appalled that a man (viz you, but without attribution) would > think rape so insignificant that they would prefer being raped to getting a > few whacks with a crop. One thought that appalling mindset went out with > slavery and all were 100% sure that everyone they knew would choose the > crop, and much worse, rather than being raped. > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *Roger Biggs > *Sent:* Thursday, 29 November 2018 11:05 AM > *To:* racing at ausrace.com > *Subject:* Re: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Where is this rather strange thread going??? > > > > I read "every man I know would prefer the crop to being gelded." ...... I > wish my Father had gelded me at 14 .... it would have saved me an absolute > fortune. > > > > but then the thread moves into a VERY uncomfortable area. "women would > prefer the crop to being raped" Utter, entire, total garbage. You need to > spend some time with females who've been down this road. > > > > Use of the whip. Some say yes, some say no. If the whip is of limited > effect on the horse then why keep it? If the use of the whip is for the > production of endorphins in the rider's brain to make him think he's urging > the horse to do it's very best .... then give him a 'phantom' whip that > he/she/it (or any of the other Alphabet People) can use without disturbing > the horse (or The Greens or PETA etc.) > > > > Can we please go back to "Horse Racing". > > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 10:38, L.B.Loveday wrote: > > General comments on treatment of racehorses (and racing dogs). > > > > I know horses are not humans, I know what anthropomorphism is, but > nonetheless there are traits that seem common to humans and many animals, > including horses. > > > > I don't need to ask to know that every man I know would prefer the crop to > being gelded, yet gelding horses is almost never questioned whereas a few > whacks with a crop brings hysteria. Gelding causes much physical pain, > especially in the 20% of cases that have after-op complications, and a > number die. As to psychological pain, who can tell? Not this mere punter, > nor I believe, any person with certainty. > > > > I'm not so sure about women, but my guess is a very large majority would > prefer the crop to being raped, but that is what humans subject mares to - > "hold them down" and have a male rape them, no choice, no foreplay for the > mare. The great mare Light Fingers was "racist" - she hated Greys and would > try to bite them on the track. So how would she have liked being held down > and raped by a grey stallion? She hated it so much that she failed to > conceive in her first two seasons. No protests about that, but hysteria if > horses are given a couple of whacks with a crop. > > > > Pigs are generally acknowledged as much more intelligent animals than > horses, yet they are subjected to terrible conditions so humans can have > their Christmas ham, and the legislated minimum conditions are > insignificant compared to the hysteria that caused legislation to ban dog > racing, albeit withdrawn, and the calls to ban the crop, and indeed horse > racing. I've seen pigs slaughtered, and they are far, far from "lambs to > the slaughter", they are terrified but go down fighting. > > > > Rats are generally acknowledged as more intelligent animals than horses, > yet they are subjected to terrible suffering before death mercifully brings > relief, by the use of poisons such as warfarin, sold as Ratsak in > Australian stores, which cause internal bleeding that can take days to kill > - I have seen rats jump into a fish pond attempting to mitigate the > suffering. Yet no outcry that I've seen, let alone the hysteria when a > horse gets a few whacks with a crop, or breaks a leg and is quickly killed; > compare that to a horse in the outback -when it breaks a leg can take a > week or more to die of dehydration. > > > > I've lived where when a dog was ran over, the body was quartered and the > parts auctioned off, where the local boys would catch cats and spit > barbeque them for a bit of meat, yet do that in South Australia, and jail > awaits - how it is a rationally a crime to eat dog (about the first > legislation passed by Rann when he won government in 2002), but ok to trap > and eat Thumper or Bugs Bunny is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Racing *On Behalf Of *L.B.Loveday > *Sent:* Sunday, 25 November 2018 2:46 PM > *To:* 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > *Subject:* [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Just saw this looking through the Archives. I have no idea what Jory's > been diagnosed as other than I know he's undergone prostatectomy. How you > have formed the opinion "*Didn't think so*" is beyond my comprehension > maybe you know him personally. > > > > From Merriam-Webster, my on-line English reference of choice: > > > > Senile: of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age > > > > My grandfather's death certificate (died at 94) showed "Cause of Death: > Senility" which upset my mother until I explained to her the sense in which > it was used. Everyone's mental acumen decreases along with their physical > ability as they age, and Jory's certainly has. > > > > I have had private communication debates with Jory, and some of what he > has written to me is at best rationally indisputably rubbish, and > demonstrated an inability to think outside what he what written. An example > - he screamed blue murder that a 83yo was on a waiting list for a hip > replacement and that he should be given priority because of his age. He > accepted that there was a waiting list of mostly, almost all even, younger > people but would in no way accept that they should not be moved back, that > if the oldest were operated on first, the young would have to wait for > years more, possibly dying before their turn came, as those older would > always be prioritised, that there was an economic case for the opposite - > repair the youngest first so they can work productively and pay taxes > which help to support the elderly - or a fairness case that the old bloke > had had 80+ years of good life, would it not be fair to repair the young > first so they could hopefully have the same? I was not advocating anything > other than saying it was wrong for an 83yo to jump the queue simply because > of age, but all Jory could do was write "But he's 83"?.. > > > > Chris Munce donated a crop to my old football club, and the boys belted > each other with it; of course it stung, like a slap from a missus stings, > but it did not break skin or result in a bruise, and I warrant the boys > were stronger even than Justin Sheehan and Mick Dittman. Horses of course > have far thicker hides than the boys. > > > > > > > > Len, > > Has he been medically diagnosed as senile? > > Didn't think so. > > He never stated that Gai et al are physically and psychologically cruel to their horses, he said that whipping a horse to try and improve its performance by running longer or faster has no place in racing and would be considered cruel if done outside of an actual race. > > I totally agree. > > When riding horses, I carry a whip purely for safety purposes and so should jockeys. > > A horse can feel a fly on it's rear, so to even suggest that a horse doesn't feel pain from a whip, makes no sense at all. > > Smart horses dump the jockey after the line, some not so smart, tear suspensory ligaments, have heart attacks, bleed, and quite a few die post-race. > > If it's not cruel to the horse, why do many stand flat footed at the gates (forgetting Chautauqua). > > Why have the rules been tightened on the type of whip, the number of strikes, where the horse can be struck, and harness racing considering a complete ban. > > Working with ex racehorses, I see firsthand both the physical and mental damage the use of a whip other than for jockey safety can cause. > > Mostly the damage is irreparable. > > Lindsay > > > > From: Racing [mailto:racing-bounces at ausrace.com ] On Behalf Of L.B.Loveday > > Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018 5:16 PM > > To: 'AusRace Racing Discussion List' > > Subject: [AusRace] They never let up re crops, do they? > > > > Rex Jory is well into his 70's and somewhat senile. Does the idiot think Gai et alia are "physically and psychologically cruel" to their horses? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > > _______________________________________________ > Racing mailing list > Racing at ausrace.com > http://ausrace.com/mailman/listinfo/racing_ausrace.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloveday at ozemail.com.au Fri Nov 30 19:17:59 2018 From: lloveday at ozemail.com.au (L.B.Loveday) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 19:17:59 +1100 Subject: [AusRace] peace In-Reply-To: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> References: <02b501d487f5$e1be4f30$a53aed90$@robwaterhouse.com> Message-ID: <006901d48885$374df1f0$a5e9d5d0$@ozemail.com.au> Nick, I've already got TFCC from the limited typing I do and it takes longer to not only type than it used to, but much longer checking on my once perfect spelling and grammar, so a book is not on the agenda. I remember the acronym TFCC as "Totally F'ed, Completely Cactus". LBL Rob W said "Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his living on the punt ? a man to be respected." *Now there's idea Len. Have you got a book in you? I know they say that most journalists have ..... and that's where it should stay, but a biography of life on the punt would be a winner. I'll put my order in now. * On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 2:12 AM Rob Waterhouse > wrote: > Dear Len and Roger, > > > > Please both continue to contribute. > > > > Roger, while Len hasn?t published, he is rare breed: a man who earns his > living on the punt ? a man to be respected. > > > > Interestingly, I was a guest at a small lunch with several of the world?s > most successful punters. I posed a question: there are said to be 2,000,000 > Australians who have had a betting account with a corporate, how many earn > a living (say $100k) punting. The answer ranged from 10 to 50 ? a small > percentage. Good on Len. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Rob W -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: